00:00:02,702|00:00:03,236|RU3| Captioning funded by CBS
00:00:03,303|00:00:04,204|RU3| and FORD--
00:00:04,270|00:00:07,007|RU3| BUILT FOR THE ROAD AHEAD.
00:00:10,243|00:00:11,244|RU3|>> Logan: ON THE TENTH
00:00:11,311|00:00:12,612|RU3|ANNIVERSARY OF THE ATTACKS ON
00:00:12,679|00:00:13,947|RU3|9/11, WE BRING YOU THE STORY OF
00:00:14,014|00:00:15,482|RU3|THE FBI AGENT WHO HELPED TO
00:00:15,548|00:00:17,917|RU3|CRACK THE CASE AGAINST AL QAEDA.
00:00:17,984|00:00:19,119|RU3|>> THE MOST IMPORTANT
00:00:19,185|00:00:20,253|RU3|INFORMATION IS IDENTIFYING
00:00:20,320|00:00:21,988|RU3|KHALID SHEIK MOHAMMED AS THE
00:00:22,055|00:00:23,390|RU3|MASTERMIND OF 9/11.
00:00:23,456|00:00:25,125|RU3|>> Logan: ALI SOUFAN HAS NEVER
00:00:25,191|00:00:26,526|RU3|SHOWN HIS FACE ON TV, BUT
00:00:26,593|00:00:28,395|RU3|TONIGHT, HE TELLS "60 MINUTES"
00:00:28,461|00:00:30,663|RU3|ABOUT INTERROGATING AND
00:00:30,730|00:00:32,198|RU3|OUTWITTING SOME OF BIN LADEN'S
00:00:32,265|00:00:33,600|RU3|LIEUTENANTS.
00:00:33,666|00:00:35,068|RU3|>> AND I SAID, "WELL, I KNOW
00:00:35,135|00:00:35,902|RU3|THAT AL QAEDA DID THAT.
00:00:35,969|00:00:36,636|RU3|SOMEONE TOLD ME."
00:00:36,703|00:00:37,604|RU3|HE SAID, "WHO TOLD YOU?"
00:00:37,670|00:00:38,004|RU3|I SAID, "YOU DID."
00:00:38,071|00:00:39,939|RU3|HE TOTALLY COLLAPSED.
00:00:40,006|00:00:41,107|RU3|>> Logan: HE COLLAPSED?
00:00:41,174|00:00:42,042|RU3|>> HE PUT HIS HANDS LIKE THIS ON
00:00:42,108|00:00:43,643|RU3|HIS FACE AND WENT DOWN.
00:00:43,710|00:00:45,678|RU3|AND HE STARTS SHAKING.
00:00:45,745|00:00:46,980|RU3|HE KNEW WHAT HE DID.
00:00:47,047|00:00:48,848|RU3|>> Logan: HE KNEW THAT HE...
00:00:48,915|00:00:50,617|RU3|>> HE JUST GAVE UP BIN LADEN, HE
00:00:50,683|00:00:52,986|RU3|JUST GAVE UP AL QAEDA ON 9/11.
00:00:55,321|00:00:55,855|RU3|>> HE COMES IN, HIS HANDS ARE
00:00:55,922|00:00:57,657|RU3|CUPPED.
00:00:57,724|00:01:01,227|RU3|AND HE'S GOT BONES IN HIS HANDS.
00:01:01,294|00:01:02,395|RU3|AND HE GOES UP TO THE MEDICAL
00:01:02,462|00:01:03,563|RU3|EXAMINER AND HE PUTS THE BONES
00:01:03,630|00:01:04,230|RU3|IN FRONT OF HIM AND HE GOES,
00:01:04,297|00:01:04,631|RU3|"THIS IS MY SON."
00:01:04,697|00:01:07,167|RU3|>> Pelley: IT WAS AFTER HEARING
00:01:07,233|00:01:10,970|RU3|STORY AFTER STORY LIKE THIS THAT
00:01:11,037|00:01:13,239|RU3|DR. BENJAMIN LUFT DECIDED TO
00:01:13,306|00:01:16,476|RU3|COMPILE THE WORLD TRADE CENTER
00:01:16,543|00:01:17,377|RU3|ORAL HISTORY PROJECT-- UNEDITED,
00:01:17,444|00:01:18,978|RU3|UNVARNISHED REALITY AS
00:01:19,045|00:01:21,848|RU3|EXPERIENCED BY THE RESPONDERS TO
00:01:21,915|00:01:23,216|RU3|GROUND ZERO.
00:01:23,283|00:01:24,851|RU3|>> IT WAS CRAZY.
00:01:24,918|00:01:26,419|RU3|>> IT WAS ALMOST LIKE TAKING A
00:01:26,486|00:01:30,924|RU3|CIVICS CLASS AS TO WHAT IS
00:01:30,990|00:01:31,791|RU3|IMPORTANT ABOUT BEING A CITIZEN.
00:01:31,858|00:01:34,461|RU3|WHAT IS IMPORTANT ABOUT BEING A
00:01:34,527|00:01:35,428|RU3|HUMAN BEING.
00:01:35,495|00:01:37,230|RU3|WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO BEING AN
00:01:37,297|00:01:38,364|RU3|AMERICAN.
00:01:39,499|00:01:40,266|RU3|>> I'M STEVE KROFT.
00:01:40,333|00:01:41,301|RU3|>> I'M LESLEY STAHL.
00:01:41,367|00:01:42,836|RU3|>> I'M BOB SIMON.
00:01:42,902|00:01:43,903|RU3|>> I'M MORLEY SAFER.
00:01:43,970|00:01:45,638|RU3|>> I'M LARA LOGAN.
00:01:45,705|00:01:47,006|RU3|>> I'M SCOTT PELLEY.
00:01:47,073|00:01:48,842|RU3|THOSE STORIES TONIGHT ON THIS
00:01:48,908|00:01:49,943|RU3|SPECIAL 9/11 EDITION OF "60
00:01:50,009|00:01:53,279|RU3|MINUTES."
00:01:58,685|00:02:00,887|RU3|>> Logan: TONIGHT, ON THE TENTH
00:02:00,954|00:02:02,489|RU3|ANNIVERSARY OF 9/11, WE BRING
00:02:02,555|00:02:03,790|RU3|YOU THE STORY OF SOMEONE WHO HAS
00:02:03,857|00:02:04,290|RU3|NEVER SHOWN HIS FACE ON
00:02:04,357|00:02:05,859|RU3|TELEVISION BEFORE, AND FOR GOOD
00:02:05,925|00:02:08,328|RU3|REASON.
00:02:08,394|00:02:09,796|RU3|ALI SOUFAN WAS ONE OF THE FBI'S
00:02:09,863|00:02:10,363|RU3|SECRET WEAPONS IN ITS FIGHT
00:02:10,430|00:02:12,765|RU3|AGAINST AL QAEDA.
00:02:12,866|00:02:15,535|RU3|A LEBANESE-AMERICAN, FLUENT IN
00:02:15,602|00:02:17,270|RU3|ARABIC, HE INTERROGATED AL QAEDA
00:02:17,337|00:02:18,671|RU3|PRISONERS AT SECRET LOCATIONS
00:02:18,738|00:02:20,974|RU3|ALL OVER THE WORLD.
00:02:21,040|00:02:22,108|RU3|SOUFAN WAS KNOWN FOR HIS ABILITY
00:02:22,175|00:02:23,910|RU3|TO OUTWIT TERRORISTS.
00:02:23,977|00:02:27,347|RU3|AND HE'S TELLING HIS STORY IN A
00:02:27,413|00:02:28,281|RU3|NEW BOOK, "THE BLACK BANNERS,"
00:02:28,348|00:02:29,449|RU3|PARTS OF WHICH HAVE BEEN BLACKED
00:02:29,516|00:02:30,617|RU3|OUT BECAUSE THE CIA SAYS THEY
00:02:30,683|00:02:34,087|RU3|CONTAIN CLASSIFIED INFORMATION.
00:02:34,154|00:02:36,189|RU3|ON THE DAY OF THE SEPTEMBER 11
00:02:36,256|00:02:37,423|RU3|ATTACKS, ALI SOUFAN WAS
00:02:37,490|00:02:39,192|RU3|THOUSANDS OF MILES AWAY FROM
00:02:39,259|00:02:41,794|RU3|GROUND ZERO, BUT IN A UNIQUE
00:02:41,861|00:02:42,395|RU3|POSITION TO HELP FIND THOSE
00:02:42,462|00:02:46,266|RU3|RESPONSIBLE.
00:02:46,332|00:02:47,567|RU3|WHAT WAS YOUR FIRST THOUGHT?
00:02:47,634|00:02:49,269|RU3|>> Ali Soufan: IT WAS AL QAEDA.
00:02:49,335|00:02:49,903|RU3|ABSOLUTELY, I HAD NO DOUBT IN MY
00:02:49,969|00:02:50,937|RU3|MIND.
00:02:51,004|00:02:52,372|RU3|I HAD NO DOUBT IN MY MIND.
00:02:52,438|00:02:53,406|RU3|TWO PLANES AT THE SAME TIME,
00:02:53,473|00:02:54,040|RU3|HITTING THE WORLD TRADE CENTER.
00:02:54,107|00:02:56,609|RU3|>> Logan: ON 9/11, FBI AGENT ALI
00:02:56,676|00:02:59,445|RU3|SOUFAN WAS IN YEMEN, WHERE HIS
00:02:59,512|00:03:01,080|RU3|NEW YORK-BASED TEAM HAD BEEN
00:03:01,147|00:03:02,549|RU3|INVESTIGATING THE DEADLY AL
00:03:02,615|00:03:04,884|RU3|QAEDA ATTACK A YEAR EARLIER ON
00:03:04,951|00:03:06,986|RU3|THE U.S.S. "COLE."
00:03:07,053|00:03:08,288|RU3|SOUFAN AND HIS TEAM WERE
00:03:08,354|00:03:09,589|RU3|PREPARING TO FLY BACK TO NEW
00:03:09,656|00:03:11,424|RU3|YORK WHEN FBI HEADQUARTERS
00:03:11,491|00:03:12,192|RU3|ORDERED HIM AND HIS PARTNER TO
00:03:12,258|00:03:14,694|RU3|STAY PUT.
00:03:14,761|00:03:15,361|RU3|AND AT THIS POINT, EVERY FIBER
00:03:15,428|00:03:17,130|RU3|OF YOUR BEING IS SCREAMING,
00:03:17,197|00:03:17,730|RU3|"I'VE GOT TO GET BACK TO NEW
00:03:17,797|00:03:19,199|RU3|YORK"?
00:03:19,265|00:03:19,832|RU3|>> Soufan: THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I
00:03:19,899|00:03:20,300|RU3|SAID.
00:03:20,366|00:03:21,668|RU3|I SAID, YOU KNOW, "NEW YORK IS
00:03:21,734|00:03:23,136|RU3|UNDER ATTACK, AMERICA UNDER
00:03:23,203|00:03:23,937|RU3|ATTACK.
00:03:24,003|00:03:24,904|RU3|WE CAN INVESTIGATE THE "COLE"
00:03:24,971|00:03:27,807|RU3|SOME OTHER TIME."
00:03:27,874|00:03:31,744|RU3|AND THE ANSWER WAS, "NO, ALI,
00:03:31,811|00:03:32,278|RU3|IT'S NOT ABOUT THE "COLE."
00:03:32,345|00:03:32,912|RU3|IT'S... IT'S ACTUALLY ABOUT WHAT
00:03:32,979|00:03:37,550|RU3|HAPPENED HERE."
00:03:37,617|00:03:38,151|RU3|AND I WAS FEELING LIKE A KNIFE
00:03:38,218|00:03:40,019|RU3|GONE IN MY HEART.
00:03:40,086|00:03:42,488|RU3|I... I FELT, "WHAT DID WE MISS?
00:03:42,555|00:03:45,325|RU3|WHAT DID WE MISS?"
00:03:45,391|00:03:47,660|RU3|>> Logan: SOUFAN WONDERED
00:03:47,727|00:03:49,095|RU3|WHETHER HE AND HIS TEAM HAD
00:03:49,162|00:03:50,463|RU3|MISSED SOME HINT OF THE 9/11
00:03:50,530|00:03:51,931|RU3|PLOT AS THEY INVESTIGATED THE
00:03:51,998|00:03:53,800|RU3|EARLIER ATTACK ON THE "COLE,"
00:03:53,866|00:03:55,602|RU3|AND HIS MISSION IN YEMEN NOW
00:03:55,668|00:03:57,837|RU3|TOOK ON A NEW URGENCY.
00:03:57,904|00:03:59,272|RU3|THERE WERE ALREADY A NUMBER OF
00:03:59,339|00:04:01,741|RU3|AL QAEDA OPERATIVES IN CUSTODY
00:04:01,808|00:04:03,610|RU3|IN YEMEN, AND FOR THE FBI, ALI
00:04:03,676|00:04:05,511|RU3|SOUFAN WAS THE RIGHT MAN TO
00:04:05,578|00:04:07,714|RU3|QUESTION THEM ABOUT 9/11.
00:04:07,780|00:04:09,616|RU3|HE HAD BEEN INVESTIGATING AL
00:04:09,682|00:04:10,583|RU3|QAEDA FOR FOUR YEARS, AND KNEW A
00:04:10,650|00:04:12,518|RU3|LOT ABOUT ITS OPERATIVES AND ITS
00:04:12,585|00:04:14,120|RU3|IDEOLOGY.
00:04:14,187|00:04:16,089|RU3|HE WAS FLUENT IN ARABIC, A
00:04:16,155|00:04:17,890|RU3|MUSLIM HIMSELF, AND AT 30 YEARS
00:04:17,957|00:04:21,027|RU3|OLD, STARTING TO MAKE A NAME FOR
00:04:21,094|00:04:21,728|RU3|HIMSELF AS ONE OF THE BUREAU'S
00:04:21,794|00:04:22,829|RU3|BEST INTERROGATORS OF ISLAMIC
00:04:22,895|00:04:25,898|RU3|EXTREMISTS.
00:04:25,965|00:04:27,667|RU3|WHAT MAKES A GOOD INTERVIEWER OR
00:04:27,734|00:04:29,402|RU3|INTERROGATOR?
00:04:29,469|00:04:29,936|RU3|>> Soufan: KNOWLEDGE AND
00:04:30,003|00:04:31,704|RU3|EMPATHY.
00:04:31,771|00:04:32,238|RU3|I THINK THESE ARE THE TWO
00:04:32,305|00:04:33,239|RU3|THINGS.
00:04:33,306|00:04:34,474|RU3|YOU NEED TO CONNECT WITH PEOPLE
00:04:34,540|00:04:36,776|RU3|ON A HUMAN LEVEL, REGARDLESS IF
00:04:36,843|00:04:40,246|RU3|THEY DON'T LIKE YOU, IF THEY
00:04:40,313|00:04:40,847|RU3|WANT TO KILL YOU.
00:04:40,913|00:04:42,081|RU3|>> Logan: IS IT HARD TO HAVE
00:04:42,148|00:04:43,316|RU3|EMPATHY WITH SOMEONE WHO'S JUST
00:04:43,383|00:04:46,152|RU3|KILLED, OR HELPED TO KILL,
00:04:46,219|00:04:48,388|RU3|THOUSANDS OF AMERICANS?
00:04:48,454|00:04:49,722|RU3|>> Soufan: OH, ABSOLUTELY.
00:04:49,789|00:04:52,258|RU3|I WAS WITH ONE GUY WHO'S TELLING
00:04:52,325|00:04:52,892|RU3|ME HE WANT TO SLAUGHTER ME LIKE
00:04:52,959|00:04:53,326|RU3|A SHEEP.
00:04:53,393|00:04:53,926|RU3|>> Logan: WHAT DID YOU SAY TO
00:04:53,993|00:04:54,294|RU3|HIM?
00:04:54,360|00:04:55,561|RU3|>> Soufan: I KIND OF, LIKE,
00:04:55,628|00:04:57,730|RU3|POLITELY PUT HIM IN HIS PLACE.
00:04:57,797|00:04:58,931|RU3|>> Logan: I WOULD LIKE TO
00:04:58,998|00:04:59,999|RU3|UNDERSTAND WHAT "POLITELY PUT
00:05:00,066|00:05:01,968|RU3|HIM IN HIS PLACE" MEANS.
00:05:02,035|00:05:03,169|RU3|>> Soufan: WE HAD A FRUIT NEXT
00:05:03,236|00:05:03,803|RU3|TO US AND THERE'S A KNIFE TO CUT
00:05:03,870|00:05:04,837|RU3|THE FRUIT.
00:05:04,904|00:05:05,672|RU3|I GAVE HIM THE KNIFE.
00:05:05,738|00:05:07,407|RU3|I SAID, "GO AHEAD AND DO IT
00:05:07,473|00:05:08,274|RU3|NOW."
00:05:08,341|00:05:09,542|RU3|HE LOOKED AT ME.
00:05:09,609|00:05:11,311|RU3|I SAID, "I THOUGHT SO.
00:05:11,377|00:05:11,978|RU3|SO SIT DOWN AND SHUT YOUR MOUTH
00:05:12,045|00:05:12,979|RU3|AND LET'S TALK."
00:05:13,046|00:05:13,613|RU3|>> Logan: ARE THEY TRYING TO
00:05:13,680|00:05:15,214|RU3|TURN THE SITUATION AROUND?
00:05:15,281|00:05:15,948|RU3|ARE THEY TRYING TO TURN IT ON
00:05:16,015|00:05:16,482|RU3|YOU?
00:05:16,549|00:05:17,183|RU3|>> Soufan: WELL, YOU KNOW WHAT?
00:05:17,250|00:05:18,584|RU3|THERE IS SOMETHING THAT THEY
00:05:18,651|00:05:19,385|RU3|DON'T EXPECT WHEN THEY ARE...
00:05:19,452|00:05:19,986|RU3|THEY ARE BEING INTERROGATED BY
00:05:20,053|00:05:22,722|RU3|AMERICANS.
00:05:22,789|00:05:23,656|RU3|THEY DON'T EXPECT A PERSON COMES
00:05:23,723|00:05:25,024|RU3|WITH THEM.
00:05:25,091|00:05:26,125|RU3|THEY HAVE, LIKE, TEA, THEY HAVE
00:05:26,192|00:05:27,727|RU3|COFFEE-- SIT DOWN, TALK, TRYING
00:05:27,794|00:05:29,028|RU3|TO KNOW EACH OTHER, TRYING TO
00:05:29,095|00:05:30,129|RU3|BUILD A RAPPORT.
00:05:30,196|00:05:30,797|RU3|AND THAT SCARES THEM, THAT
00:05:30,863|00:05:33,433|RU3|SHAKES THEM.
00:05:33,499|00:05:34,701|RU3|BECAUSE THEY WERE TRAINED THAT
00:05:34,767|00:05:36,269|RU3|WE ARE SO EVIL, AND WE TORTURE
00:05:36,336|00:05:39,605|RU3|AND WE KILL.
00:05:39,672|00:05:40,206|RU3|AND THAT IS THE REASON OF THE
00:05:40,273|00:05:42,575|RU3|RAGE AGAINST US.
00:05:42,642|00:05:44,243|RU3|SO THEY TELL YOU A LOT OF STUFF
00:05:44,310|00:05:45,078|RU3|TO PISS YOU OFF, AND THEN THEY
00:05:45,144|00:05:46,245|RU3|CAN SAY, "SEE?
00:05:46,312|00:05:47,347|RU3|HE IS EVIL."
00:05:47,413|00:05:50,116|RU3|SO IN MY CASE, I TRY TO DEPRIVE
00:05:50,183|00:05:52,018|RU3|THEM FROM THAT.
00:05:52,085|00:05:53,019|RU3|>> Logan: DO YOU THINK THE FACT
00:05:53,086|00:05:54,587|RU3|THAT YOU WERE A MUSLIM GAVE YOU
00:05:54,654|00:05:57,156|RU3|AN ADVANTAGE IN SOME CASES AND
00:05:57,223|00:05:58,491|RU3|IN SOME WAYS?
00:05:58,558|00:05:59,659|RU3|>> Soufan: NO.
00:05:59,726|00:06:02,528|RU3|BUT THE FACT THAT MAYBE I
00:06:02,595|00:06:03,930|RU3|UNDERSTOOD THE CULTURE, THE FACT
00:06:03,996|00:06:05,531|RU3|THAT I GENUINELY, AS A PERSON,
00:06:05,598|00:06:06,999|RU3|HAVE AN INTEREST IN THESE KIND
00:06:07,066|00:06:07,633|RU3|OF THINGS, THAT PROBABLY HELPED
00:06:07,700|00:06:10,069|RU3|ME.
00:06:10,136|00:06:11,070|RU3|>> Logan: THERE HAS BEEN TIMES
00:06:11,137|00:06:12,071|RU3|WHERE YOU'VE GOT INTO REALLY
00:06:12,138|00:06:12,472|RU3|DEEP, RELIGIOUS...
00:06:12,538|00:06:13,239|RU3|>> Soufan: RIGHT.
00:06:13,306|00:06:14,107|RU3|>> Logan: ...ARGUMENTS WITH SOME
00:06:14,173|00:06:15,508|RU3|PRETTY HIGH-LEVEL BAD GUYS.
00:06:15,575|00:06:16,576|RU3|>> Soufan: WELL, IT HAPPENED
00:06:16,642|00:06:17,577|RU3|FREQUENTLY, YEAH.
00:06:17,643|00:06:18,144|RU3|>> Logan: DID YOU WIN THOSE
00:06:18,211|00:06:19,445|RU3|ARGUMENTS?
00:06:19,512|00:06:20,113|RU3|>> Soufan: WELL, I DON'T KNOW IF
00:06:20,179|00:06:23,416|RU3|I CONVINCED THEM.
00:06:23,483|00:06:24,117|RU3|BUT I KNOW, TOWARDS THE END, I
00:06:24,217|00:06:25,318|RU3|HAVE MY CONFESSION AND THAT
00:06:25,385|00:06:30,123|RU3|WHAT'S I CARE ABOUT.
00:06:30,189|00:06:30,623|RU3|( LAUGHTER )
00:06:30,690|00:06:31,224|RU3|>> Logan: JUST ONE WEEK AFTER
00:06:31,290|00:06:31,991|RU3|9/11, SOUFAN AND HIS PARTNER
00:06:32,058|00:06:33,092|RU3|FOUND THEMSELVES FACE TO FACE
00:06:33,159|00:06:34,560|RU3|WITH OSAMA BIN LADEN'S
00:06:34,627|00:06:36,796|RU3|BODYGUARD, ABU JANDAL.
00:06:36,863|00:06:37,830|RU3|HE'D BEEN CAUGHT AND IMPRISONED
00:06:37,897|00:06:39,132|RU3|IN YEMEN NEARLY SEVEN MONTHS
00:06:39,198|00:06:41,300|RU3|BEFORE 9/11, BUT NOW THAT BIN
00:06:41,367|00:06:44,537|RU3|LADEN HAD ATTACKED ON U.S. SOIL,
00:06:44,604|00:06:45,138|RU3|IT WAS IMPORTANT TO SEE IF ABU
00:06:45,204|00:06:47,106|RU3|JANDAL COULD HELP THE FBI BUILD
00:06:47,173|00:06:48,975|RU3|A CASE AGAINST THOSE
00:06:49,041|00:06:51,577|RU3|RESPONSIBLE.
00:06:51,644|00:06:53,012|RU3|>> Soufan: HE WALKED, SAT IN HIS
00:06:53,079|00:06:53,613|RU3|CHAIR, AND LITERALLY MOVED THE
00:06:53,679|00:06:58,718|RU3|CHAIR TOWARDS THE TWO YEMENI
00:06:58,785|00:07:01,621|RU3|INTERROGATORS THAT'S THERE.
00:07:01,687|00:07:02,321|RU3|AND HE SAID, "I DON'T
00:07:02,388|00:07:03,289|RU3|ACKNOWLEDGE THEM.
00:07:03,356|00:07:03,823|RU3|I DON'T ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR
00:07:03,890|00:07:04,957|RU3|EXISTENCE."
00:07:05,024|00:07:05,558|RU3|>> Logan: AND WHY IS HE DOING
00:07:05,625|00:07:06,793|RU3|THAT?
00:07:06,859|00:07:07,427|RU3|>> Soufan: HE HATE US.
00:07:07,493|00:07:09,729|RU3|HE HATE AMERICANS.
00:07:09,796|00:07:10,463|RU3|>> Logan: SO HOW DID YOU GET HIM
00:07:10,530|00:07:11,097|RU3|TO OPEN UP?
00:07:11,164|00:07:11,631|RU3|>> Soufan: WELL, IT WAS A
00:07:11,697|00:07:12,532|RU3|PROCESS.
00:07:12,598|00:07:13,466|RU3|WE WERE ABLE TO BUILD A RAPPORT
00:07:13,533|00:07:15,234|RU3|WITH HIM.
00:07:15,301|00:07:17,770|RU3|AND HE TALKED A LOT ABOUT, YOU
00:07:17,837|00:07:19,071|RU3|KNOW, REVOLUTIONS AND THE
00:07:19,138|00:07:21,441|RU3|HISTORY OF REVOLUTIONS.
00:07:21,507|00:07:22,275|RU3|SO I START TELLING HIM ABOUT THE
00:07:22,341|00:07:24,610|RU3|AMERICAN REVOLUTION, TOO.
00:07:24,677|00:07:26,012|RU3|AND WE GOT HIM A BOOK IN ARABIC
00:07:26,078|00:07:27,079|RU3|ABOUT GEORGE WASHINGTON AND THE
00:07:27,146|00:07:28,714|RU3|AMERICAN REVOLUTION THAT HE
00:07:28,781|00:07:29,248|RU3|ACTUALLY STAYED ALL NIGHT
00:07:29,315|00:07:30,149|RU3|READING.
00:07:30,216|00:07:32,885|RU3|HE WAS FASCINATED BY IT.
00:07:32,952|00:07:34,086|RU3|BUT HE'S PRACTICING TYPICAL
00:07:34,153|00:07:35,755|RU3|COUNTER-INTERROGATION
00:07:35,822|00:07:39,292|RU3|TECHNIQUES, WHERE HE GIVES YOU
00:07:39,358|00:07:41,227|RU3|WHAT HE THINKS YOU KNOW SO YOU
00:07:41,294|00:07:42,695|RU3|WILL THINK HE'S COOPERATING.
00:07:42,762|00:07:43,830|RU3|>> Logan: SOUFAN SAYS WHEN ABU
00:07:43,896|00:07:44,831|RU3|JANDAL LOOKED AT A BOOK OF
00:07:44,897|00:07:45,331|RU3|PHOTOS OF KNOWN AL QAEDA
00:07:45,398|00:07:48,568|RU3|MEMBERS, HE IDENTIFIED VERY FEW
00:07:48,634|00:07:53,439|RU3|AND KEPT PASSING OVER THE PHOTO
00:07:53,506|00:07:55,074|RU3|OF THIS MAN, MARWAN AL SHEHHI,
00:07:55,141|00:07:58,010|RU3|ONE OF THE 9/11 HIJACKERS.
00:07:58,077|00:08:00,746|RU3|SOUFAN KNEW ABU JANDAL HAD CARED
00:08:00,813|00:08:01,447|RU3|FOR EL SHEHHI YEARS AGO WHEN HE
00:08:01,514|00:08:03,149|RU3|WAS VERY SICK.
00:08:03,216|00:08:04,917|RU3|SO THE FACT THAT HE WAS NOT
00:08:04,984|00:08:06,285|RU3|IDENTIFYING HIM IMMEDIATELY WAS
00:08:06,352|00:08:07,053|RU3|A SIGNAL TO YOU THAT HE WAS NOT
00:08:07,119|00:08:07,620|RU3|BEING HONEST?
00:08:07,687|00:08:09,055|RU3|>> Soufan: EXACTLY.
00:08:09,121|00:08:10,590|RU3|SO I SAID TO HIM, "SO YOU WANT
00:08:10,656|00:08:11,190|RU3|TO TELL ME YOU DON'T KNOW THIS
00:08:11,257|00:08:13,392|RU3|GUY?
00:08:13,459|00:08:16,562|RU3|KANDAHAR, DECEMBER 1999,
00:08:16,629|00:08:19,432|RU3|RAMADAN.
00:08:19,499|00:08:20,933|RU3|HE GOT VERY SICK.
00:08:21,000|00:08:24,604|RU3|YOU WERE NURSING HIM AND PUTTING
00:08:24,670|00:08:25,338|RU3|SOUP ON HIS LIPS, SO HE WON'T
00:08:25,404|00:08:26,672|RU3|GET DEHYDRATED."
00:08:26,739|00:08:28,441|RU3|I TOOK THE BOOK.
00:08:28,508|00:08:31,577|RU3|I SAID, "LET ME MAKE IT VERY
00:08:31,644|00:08:33,346|RU3|CLEAR TO YOU.
00:08:33,412|00:08:34,814|RU3|YOU DON'T KNOW HOW MANY PEOPLE
00:08:34,881|00:08:37,250|RU3|IN THE BOOK WORKS FOR ME.
00:08:37,316|00:08:39,519|RU3|YOU DON'T KNOW HOW MANY PEOPLE
00:08:39,585|00:08:40,853|RU3|IN THE BOOK WE CAUGHT AND
00:08:40,920|00:08:43,222|RU3|THEY'RE COOPERATING.
00:08:43,289|00:08:44,757|RU3|AND THAT IS THE CARD THAT I HAVE
00:08:44,824|00:08:45,391|RU3|TO KNOW IF YOU'RE COOPERATING OR
00:08:45,458|00:08:46,993|RU3|NOT.
00:08:47,059|00:08:47,660|RU3|WHY DON'T YOU LOOK AT THE BOOK
00:08:47,727|00:08:48,794|RU3|AGAIN?"
00:08:48,861|00:08:49,962|RU3|HE IDENTIFIED ALMOST EVERYONE IN
00:08:50,029|00:08:51,364|RU3|THE BOOK.
00:08:51,430|00:08:52,565|RU3|>> Logan: AMONG THOSE ABU JANDAL
00:08:52,632|00:08:54,433|RU3|IDENTIFIED AS AL QAEDA MEMBERS
00:08:54,500|00:08:55,835|RU3|WERE SEVEN OF THE TERRORISTS WHO
00:08:55,902|00:08:56,469|RU3|FLEW PLANES INTO THE WORLD TRADE
00:08:56,536|00:08:59,739|RU3|CENTER AND THE PENTAGON.
00:08:59,805|00:09:00,806|RU3|ABU JANDAL DIDN'T KNOW THEY HAD
00:09:00,873|00:09:02,308|RU3|BEEN INVOLVED IN THE 9/11 PLOT
00:09:02,375|00:09:03,943|RU3|BECAUSE HE'D BEEN IN PRISON, AND
00:09:04,010|00:09:04,911|RU3|HE INSISTED THAT AL QAEDA WAS
00:09:04,977|00:09:08,180|RU3|NOT BEHIND THE ATTACK.
00:09:08,247|00:09:09,081|RU3|HE DIDN'T BELIEVE IT?
00:09:09,148|00:09:10,182|RU3|>> Soufan: HE WAS VERY ADAMANT
00:09:10,249|00:09:11,884|RU3|THAT BIN LADEN DIDN'T DO IT.
00:09:11,951|00:09:15,788|RU3|>> Logan: SO WHAT HAPPENS THEN?
00:09:15,855|00:09:16,422|RU3|>> Soufan: I SAID, "WELL, I KNOW
00:09:16,489|00:09:16,956|RU3|THAT AL QAEDA DID THAT.
00:09:17,023|00:09:17,423|RU3|SOMEONE TOLD ME."
00:09:17,490|00:09:17,990|RU3|HE SAID, "WHO TOLD YOU?"
00:09:18,057|00:09:18,457|RU3|I SAID, "YOU DID."
00:09:18,524|00:09:19,058|RU3|AND HE GETS SO MAD.
00:09:19,125|00:09:19,659|RU3|"YOU'RE PUTTING WORDS IN MY
00:09:19,725|00:09:20,393|RU3|MOUTH.
00:09:20,459|00:09:22,562|RU3|I NEVER SAID AL QAEDA DID THAT."
00:09:22,628|00:09:23,963|RU3|I SAID, "DO YOU KNOW WHO FLEW
00:09:24,030|00:09:24,931|RU3|THE PLANES INTO THE WORLD TRADE
00:09:24,997|00:09:27,266|RU3|CENTER AND THE PENTAGON?"
00:09:27,333|00:09:28,301|RU3|AND I TOOK THE SEVEN PHOTOS THAT
00:09:28,367|00:09:30,069|RU3|HE IDENTIFIED AND PUT IT IN
00:09:30,136|00:09:31,470|RU3|FRONT OF HIM.
00:09:31,537|00:09:32,872|RU3|I SAID, "THOSE, MY FRIEND, ARE
00:09:32,939|00:09:34,574|RU3|NOT MY SOURCES; THOSE ARE THE
00:09:34,640|00:09:37,577|RU3|PEOPLE WHO FLEW THE PLANES."
00:09:37,643|00:09:38,044|RU3|HE TOTALLY COLLAPSED.
00:09:38,110|00:09:39,378|RU3|>> Logan: HE COLLAPSED?
00:09:39,445|00:09:40,713|RU3|>> Soufan: HE PUT HIS HANDS LIKE
00:09:40,780|00:09:43,115|RU3|THIS ON HIS FACE AND WENT DOWN.
00:09:43,182|00:09:45,117|RU3|AND HE STARTS SHAKING.
00:09:45,184|00:09:46,285|RU3|HE KNEW WHAT HE DID.
00:09:46,352|00:09:47,853|RU3|>> Logan: HE KNEW THAT HE...
00:09:47,920|00:09:48,721|RU3|>> Soufan: HE JUST GAVE UP BIN
00:09:48,788|00:09:49,822|RU3|LADEN, HE JUST GAVE UP AL QAEDA
00:09:49,889|00:09:51,123|RU3|ON 9/11.
00:09:51,190|00:09:52,725|RU3|AND AFTER THAT, THE LEVEL OF
00:09:52,792|00:09:55,895|RU3|COOPERATION WAS VERY DIFFERENT.
00:09:55,962|00:09:58,764|RU3|WE ENDED UP SPENDING DAYS AND
00:09:58,831|00:10:01,300|RU3|DAYS WITH HIM.
00:10:01,367|00:10:02,735|RU3|>> Logan: ABU JANDAL PROVIDED
00:10:02,802|00:10:04,270|RU3|NEARLY 100 PAGES OF INFORMATION,
00:10:04,337|00:10:07,239|RU3|ACCORDING TO SOUFAN'S FBI
00:10:07,306|00:10:08,274|RU3|REPORT, INCLUDING INTRICATE
00:10:08,341|00:10:09,442|RU3|DETAILS ABOUT AL QAEDA'S
00:10:09,508|00:10:16,949|RU3|"TRAINING FACILITIES,"
00:10:17,016|00:10:17,583|RU3|"COMMUNICATIONS" AND "WEAPONRY."
00:10:17,650|00:10:18,217|RU3|IT WAS QUITE AN ACHIEVEMENT FOR
00:10:18,284|00:10:18,751|RU3|SOMEONE WHO MIGHT BEST BE
00:10:18,818|00:10:19,352|RU3|DESCRIBED AS AN ACCIDENTAL FBI
00:10:19,418|00:10:20,152|RU3|AGENT.
00:10:20,219|00:10:21,554|RU3|SOUFAN GREW UP IN LEBANON DURING
00:10:21,621|00:10:24,557|RU3|THAT COUNTRY'S BRUTAL CIVIL WAR,
00:10:24,624|00:10:25,925|RU3|AND HE MOVED WITH HIS FAMILY TO
00:10:25,992|00:10:29,028|RU3|THE U.S. WHEN HE WAS 17.
00:10:29,095|00:10:30,196|RU3|HE WAS A FRAT BOY AT MANSFIELD
00:10:30,262|00:10:31,864|RU3|UNIVERSITY IN PENNSYLVANIA,
00:10:31,931|00:10:34,567|RU3|PLANNING A CAREER IN ACADEMIA,
00:10:34,634|00:10:35,468|RU3|WHEN A COLLEGE ADMINISTRATOR
00:10:35,534|00:10:36,202|RU3|SUGGESTED HE APPLY FOR A JOB
00:10:36,268|00:10:38,638|RU3|WITH THE FBI.
00:10:38,704|00:10:40,006|RU3|>> Soufan: WHEN HE SAID THAT, I
00:10:40,072|00:10:41,273|RU3|WAS LIKE... AS IF HE WAS TELLING
00:10:41,340|00:10:42,041|RU3|ME, "YOU'RE GOING TO BE, LIKE,
00:10:42,108|00:10:43,075|RU3|IN THE CIRCUS, OR YOU'RE GOING
00:10:43,142|00:10:44,143|RU3|TO BE, YOU KNOW, A RACECAR
00:10:44,210|00:10:45,444|RU3|DRIVER."
00:10:45,511|00:10:46,479|RU3|I MEAN, "FBI?
00:10:46,545|00:10:47,480|RU3|WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT," YOU
00:10:47,546|00:10:47,680|RU3|KNOW?
00:10:47,747|00:10:49,882|RU3|PEOPLE WERE LAUGHING.
00:10:49,949|00:10:50,516|RU3|MY FRIENDS...
00:10:50,583|00:10:51,817|RU3|>> Logan: YOUR FRAT BROTHERS.
00:10:51,884|00:10:52,485|RU3|>> Soufan: YEAH, WERE LAUGHING.
00:10:52,551|00:10:53,586|RU3|I'M LIKE, "THEY WILL SEND YOU
00:10:53,653|00:10:54,854|RU3|BACK THE APPLICATION."
00:10:54,920|00:10:55,421|RU3|>> Logan: A LITTLE BIT OF A
00:10:55,488|00:10:57,556|RU3|CHALLENGE.
00:10:57,623|00:10:59,025|RU3|>> Soufan: I WAS LIKE, "OKAY.
00:10:59,091|00:11:01,193|RU3|WE'LL SEE ABOUT THAT."
00:11:01,260|00:11:02,061|RU3|>> Logan: IN 1997, AFTER GETTING
00:11:02,128|00:11:03,829|RU3|A MASTER'S DEGREE IN
00:11:03,896|00:11:05,331|RU3|INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS, HE
00:11:05,398|00:11:06,966|RU3|JOINED THE FBI'S NEW YORK OFFICE
00:11:07,033|00:11:09,201|RU3|AS A ROOKIE COUNTER-TERRORISM
00:11:09,268|00:11:10,970|RU3|AGENT, AND HE WAS LITTLE MORE
00:11:11,037|00:11:12,171|RU3|THAN THREE YEARS ON THE JOB WHEN
00:11:12,238|00:11:15,241|RU3|HE WAS MADE THE CASE AGENT FOR
00:11:15,307|00:11:16,242|RU3|THE FBI'S INVESTIGATION OF THE
00:11:16,308|00:11:20,012|RU3|ATTACK ON THE U.S.S. "COLE."
00:11:20,079|00:11:22,014|RU3|IN MARCH 2002, THE U.S. CAPTURED
00:11:22,081|00:11:25,685|RU3|ITS FIRST HIGH-VALUE TERRORIST
00:11:25,751|00:11:26,385|RU3|OPERATIVE, ABU ZUBAYDAH, AFTER A
00:11:26,452|00:11:30,356|RU3|FIRE-FIGHT IN PAKISTAN.
00:11:30,423|00:11:31,624|RU3|ALI SOUFAN AND HIS PARTNER WERE
00:11:31,691|00:11:32,892|RU3|CALLED IN TO ASSIST IN THE CIA
00:11:32,958|00:11:34,593|RU3|INTERROGATION AT A SECRET
00:11:34,660|00:11:36,495|RU3|LOCATION IN THAILAND.
00:11:36,562|00:11:37,229|RU3|ABU ZUBAYDAH WAS SEVERELY
00:11:37,296|00:11:37,797|RU3|WOUNDED BUT STILL ABLE TO
00:11:37,863|00:11:39,365|RU3|COMMUNICATE.
00:11:39,432|00:11:41,734|RU3|FROM U.S. INTELLIGENCE FILES,
00:11:41,801|00:11:43,202|RU3|SOUFAN HAD LEARNED A LOT ABOUT
00:11:43,269|00:11:44,670|RU3|ABU ZUBAYDAH, AND HE TOLD US HE
00:11:44,737|00:11:45,638|RU3|PUT THAT KNOWLEDGE TO GOOD USE
00:11:45,705|00:11:48,774|RU3|RIGHT WAY.
00:11:48,841|00:11:50,209|RU3|>> Soufan: WHEN I FIRST MET HIM,
00:11:50,276|00:11:52,745|RU3|I ASKED HIM HIS NAME, AND HE
00:11:52,812|00:11:54,246|RU3|GAVE ME A FAKE NAME.
00:11:54,313|00:11:54,780|RU3|>> Logan: "DAWUD."
00:11:54,847|00:11:55,381|RU3|>> Soufan: A DIFFERENT NAME--
00:11:55,448|00:11:58,918|RU3|"DAWUD."
00:11:58,984|00:11:59,518|RU3|AND I SAID TO HIM, "WHAT IF I
00:11:59,585|00:12:02,021|RU3|CALL YOU 'HANI'?"
00:12:02,088|00:12:02,588|RU3|AND THE LOOK ON HIS FACE WAS
00:12:02,655|00:12:02,988|RU3|LIKE...
00:12:03,055|00:12:04,824|RU3|YOU KNOW?
00:12:04,890|00:12:05,725|RU3|LIKE... YOU KNOW, LIKE, YOU
00:12:05,791|00:12:06,292|RU3|KNOW, "THAT'S IT.
00:12:06,358|00:12:08,627|RU3|IT'S OVER."
00:12:08,694|00:12:10,730|RU3|AND HE JUST LOOKED AT ME AND
00:12:10,796|00:12:12,231|RU3|HE... JUST SHOOK HIS HEAD.
00:12:12,298|00:12:13,632|RU3|HE WAS SHOCKED.
00:12:13,699|00:12:16,669|RU3|"HANI" IS THE NAME THAT HIS
00:12:16,736|00:12:17,937|RU3|MOTHER CALLED HIM AS A CHILD.
00:12:18,003|00:12:19,038|RU3|SO HE KNEW THAT I KNOW
00:12:19,105|00:12:19,972|RU3|EVERYTHING ABOUT HIM.
00:12:20,039|00:12:20,606|RU3|>> Logan: WHY DO YOU THINK THAT
00:12:20,673|00:12:22,308|RU3|MATTERED SO MUCH?
00:12:22,374|00:12:25,945|RU3|>> Soufan: IT KIND OF TOLD HIM
00:12:26,011|00:12:26,579|RU3|THAT YOU CANNOT PLAY GAMES WITH
00:12:26,645|00:12:27,146|RU3|US.
00:12:27,213|00:12:28,547|RU3|WE KNOW WHO YOU ARE.
00:12:28,614|00:12:29,248|RU3|>> Logan: AND WHAT DO YOU THINK
00:12:29,315|00:12:29,982|RU3|IS THE MOST IMPORTANT
00:12:30,049|00:12:30,549|RU3|INFORMATION THAT CAME OUT OF
00:12:30,616|00:12:31,684|RU3|THAT?
00:12:31,751|00:12:32,918|RU3|>> Soufan: THE MOST IMPORTANT
00:12:32,985|00:12:34,086|RU3|INFORMATION IS IDENTIFYING
00:12:34,153|00:12:35,955|RU3|KHALID SHEIKH MOHAMMED AS A
00:12:36,021|00:12:40,192|RU3|MASTERMIND OF 9/11.
00:12:40,259|00:12:40,893|RU3|>> Logan: AT THE TIME, KHALID
00:12:40,960|00:12:41,827|RU3|SHEIKH MOHAMMED, OR "KSM", WAS
00:12:41,894|00:12:42,995|RU3|ON THE FBI'S MOST WANTED LIST
00:12:43,062|00:12:47,133|RU3|FOR OTHER TERRORIST PLOTS.
00:12:47,199|00:12:49,468|RU3|U.S. INTELLIGENCE SUSPECTED HE
00:12:49,535|00:12:50,703|RU3|WAS INVOLVED IN 9/11, BUT THE
00:12:50,770|00:12:52,905|RU3|FBI DIDN'T HAVE ANY EVIDENCE OF
00:12:52,972|00:12:54,874|RU3|THAT.
00:12:54,940|00:12:56,542|RU3|ALI SOUFAN AND HIS PARTNER,
00:12:56,609|00:12:57,510|RU3|STEVE GAUDIN, MEANT TO SHOW ABU
00:12:57,576|00:12:59,078|RU3|ZUBAYDAH A PHOTO OF SOMEONE ELSE
00:12:59,145|00:13:00,846|RU3|ON THE MOST WANTED LIST, BUT
00:13:00,913|00:13:04,383|RU3|THEY SHOWED ABU ZUBAYDAH THIS
00:13:04,450|00:13:05,217|RU3|PHOTO OF K.S.M. BY MISTAKE.
00:13:05,284|00:13:05,918|RU3|>> Soufan: HE LOOKS AT ME AND HE
00:13:05,985|00:13:06,585|RU3|SAYS, "DON'T PLAY GAMES WITH ME,
00:13:06,652|00:13:07,153|RU3|BROTHER.
00:13:07,219|00:13:08,053|RU3|DON'T PLAY GAMES WITH ME.
00:13:08,120|00:13:11,290|RU3|YOU KNOW WHO THIS GUY.
00:13:11,357|00:13:12,825|RU3|THIS IS... THIS IS MUKHTAR.
00:13:12,892|00:13:14,126|RU3|THIS IS MASTERMIND OF THE PLANE
00:13:14,193|00:13:15,327|RU3|OPERATIONS."
00:13:15,394|00:13:16,762|RU3|>> Logan: OF 9/11?
00:13:16,829|00:13:18,964|RU3|>> Soufan: THAT'S WHAT AL QAEDA
00:13:19,031|00:13:19,598|RU3|CALL 9/11, "THE PLANE
00:13:19,665|00:13:20,633|RU3|OPERATIONS."
00:13:20,699|00:13:21,500|RU3|>> Logan: MUKHTAR?
00:13:21,567|00:13:21,801|RU3|THAT'S...
00:13:21,867|00:13:22,468|RU3|>> Soufan: MUKHTAR.
00:13:22,535|00:13:23,068|RU3|>> Logan: ...THE NAME HE USES?
00:13:23,135|00:13:23,669|RU3|>> Soufan: THAT WAS THE ALIAS
00:13:23,736|00:13:24,537|RU3|FOR KSM.
00:13:24,603|00:13:26,338|RU3|>> Logan: DID YOU KNOW THAT?
00:13:26,405|00:13:27,706|RU3|>> Soufan: NO.
00:13:27,773|00:13:28,240|RU3|I HAD NO IDEA.
00:13:28,307|00:13:29,241|RU3|THE ONLY THING I KNEW AT THE
00:13:29,308|00:13:29,842|RU3|TIME, I'M LOOKING FOR A
00:13:29,909|00:13:30,876|RU3|"MUKHTAR."
00:13:30,943|00:13:32,044|RU3|SO, WHEN HE SAID "MUKHTAR," IT
00:13:32,111|00:13:35,548|RU3|KIND OF, LIKE, CLICKED.
00:13:35,614|00:13:36,715|RU3|SO I LOOKED AT IT AND I SAID,
00:13:36,782|00:13:37,283|RU3|"OH, STEVE, YOU GAVE ME THE
00:13:37,349|00:13:38,984|RU3|WRONG PHOTO."
00:13:39,051|00:13:41,387|RU3|AND I GAVE IT TO STEVE, SO HE
00:13:41,453|00:13:42,254|RU3|WILL KNOW WHO THE MASTERMIND OF
00:13:42,321|00:13:44,590|RU3|9/11 IS.
00:13:44,657|00:13:45,224|RU3|>> Logan: YOU'RE PLAYING IT VERY
00:13:45,291|00:13:45,825|RU3|COOL, BUT WHAT'S GOING THROUGH
00:13:45,891|00:13:47,560|RU3|YOUR HEAD, REALLY?
00:13:47,626|00:13:50,729|RU3|>> Soufan: "HOLY ( BLEEP )!
00:13:50,796|00:13:52,832|RU3|K.S.M. IS AN AL QAEDA GUY, THE
00:13:52,898|00:13:54,233|RU3|ONE IN 9/11?"
00:13:54,300|00:13:55,267|RU3|>> Logan: IT WAS AN ACCIDENT?
00:13:55,334|00:13:55,734|RU3|>> Soufan: TOTALLY.
00:13:55,801|00:13:57,837|RU3|TOTALLY.
00:13:57,903|00:13:59,672|RU3|>> Logan: SOUFAN SAYS HE
00:13:59,738|00:14:00,406|RU3|BELIEVES ABU ZUBAYDAH DIDN'T
00:14:00,472|00:14:01,540|RU3|MEAN TO DIVULGE IMPORTANT
00:14:01,607|00:14:03,676|RU3|INFORMATION, AND WAS TRYING TO
00:14:03,742|00:14:09,715|RU3|GIVE UP AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE.
00:14:09,782|00:14:10,983|RU3|WAS HE WELL VERSED IN
00:14:11,050|00:14:11,450|RU3|>> Logan: ...COUNTER-
00:14:11,517|00:14:11,851|RU3|INTELLIGENCE?
00:14:11,917|00:14:12,251|RU3|>> Soufan: YES.
00:14:12,318|00:14:13,586|RU3|HE'S... HE'S DEFINITELY WELL
00:14:13,652|00:14:14,220|RU3|VERSED IN COUNTER-INTELLIGENCE.
00:14:14,286|00:14:16,188|RU3|COUNTER-INTERROGATION.
00:14:16,255|00:14:23,596|RU3|HE IS A SMART... HE IS, I CAN
00:14:23,662|00:14:25,698|RU3|ACTUALLY SAY, BORDERLINE GENIUS.
00:14:25,764|00:14:26,365|RU3|YOU KNOW, I... I HEAR A LOT OF
00:14:26,432|00:14:26,999|RU3|PEOPLE SAYING HE'S AN IDIOT.
00:14:27,066|00:14:29,235|RU3|HE'S... NO, HE'S... HE'S
00:14:29,301|00:14:29,835|RU3|PROBABLY ONE OF THE SMARTEST
00:14:29,902|00:14:31,070|RU3|PEOPLE I INTERROGATED.
00:14:31,136|00:14:31,971|RU3|>> Logan: SOUFAN THOUGHT HE AND
00:14:32,037|00:14:34,506|RU3|HIS PARTNER WERE MAKING
00:14:34,573|00:14:35,774|RU3|PROGRESS, BUT HE SAYS EVERYTHING
00:14:35,841|00:14:37,376|RU3|ABRUPTLY CHANGED AFTER TEN DAYS
00:14:37,443|00:14:39,345|RU3|WHEN HE WAS TOLD TO STOP TALKING
00:14:39,411|00:14:40,579|RU3|TO ABU ZUBAYDAH.
00:14:40,646|00:14:42,181|RU3|>> Soufan: THE C.T.C. TEAM, THE
00:14:42,248|00:14:43,315|RU3|COUNTER-TERRORISM CENTER TEAM,
00:14:43,382|00:14:44,583|RU3|ARRIVED.
00:14:44,650|00:14:45,517|RU3|>> Logan: OF THE CIA.
00:14:45,584|00:14:47,086|RU3|>> Soufan: OF THE CIA.
00:14:47,152|00:14:48,387|RU3|SO WE TOLD THEM, FROM OUR
00:14:48,454|00:14:49,922|RU3|PERSPECTIVE, THAT HE HAS BEEN
00:14:49,989|00:14:55,294|RU3|COOPERATING.
00:14:55,361|00:14:55,861|RU3|WE JUST GOT INFORMATION THAT
00:14:55,928|00:14:56,428|RU3|K.S.M. IS THE MASTERMIND OF
00:14:56,495|00:14:59,665|RU3|9/11.
00:14:59,732|00:15:01,967|RU3|THEY SAID, "WELL, YEAH, BUT
00:15:02,034|00:15:04,069|RU3|THERE'S A BELIEF THAT THERE'S A
00:15:04,136|00:15:05,938|RU3|LOT MORE INFORMATION, AND HE'S
00:15:06,005|00:15:09,775|RU3|NOT GIVING IT UP YET."
00:15:09,842|00:15:12,144|RU3|SO IT ENDED UP THAT THERE'S A
00:15:12,211|00:15:13,445|RU3|PLAN ALREADY DECIDED IN
00:15:13,512|00:15:14,980|RU3|WASHINGTON THAT WAS BASICALLY TO
00:15:15,047|00:15:17,516|RU3|STRATEGICALLY DIMINISH HIS
00:15:17,583|00:15:20,286|RU3|"ABILITY TO RESIST," AS... AS
00:15:20,352|00:15:22,688|RU3|THE TERM WAS USED.
00:15:22,755|00:15:27,059|RU3|WE KNEW THAT WE'RE GOING DOWN ON
00:15:27,126|00:15:28,093|RU3|A PATH THAT'S A DANGEROUS PATH,
00:15:28,160|00:15:28,694|RU3|A PATH THAT WE HAVEN'T BEEN ON
00:15:28,761|00:15:30,462|RU3|BEFORE.
00:15:30,529|00:15:31,630|RU3|SO WE HAD TO PULL OUT FROM THE
00:15:31,697|00:15:34,199|RU3|INTERROGATION, AND WE HAD TO
00:15:34,266|00:15:40,606|RU3|START WITNESSING SOMETHING THAT
00:15:40,673|00:15:41,674|RU3|WAS REALLY SURPRISING, SOME
00:15:41,740|00:15:44,243|RU3|TECHNIQUE THAT WE NEVER THOUGHT
00:15:44,310|00:15:46,912|RU3|THAT WE WILL SEE US DOING.
00:15:46,979|00:15:49,348|RU3|>> Logan: THE NEW TECHNIQUES ALI
00:15:49,415|00:15:51,550|RU3|SOUFAN IS TALKING ABOUT INCLUDED
00:15:51,617|00:15:52,184|RU3|NUDITY, SLEEP-DEPRIVATION, AND
00:15:52,251|00:15:53,953|RU3|LOUD MUSIC.
00:15:54,019|00:15:55,421|RU3|IT WAS THE BEGINNING OF THE
00:15:55,487|00:15:57,189|RU3|TOUGH AND CONTROVERSIAL METHODS
00:15:57,256|00:15:58,824|RU3|THAT WOULD ULTIMATELY INCLUDE
00:15:58,891|00:16:00,526|RU3|WATER-BOARDING AND BECOME KNOWN
00:16:00,592|00:16:01,427|RU3|AS "ENHANCED INTERROGATION
00:16:01,493|00:16:03,595|RU3|TECHNIQUES."
00:16:03,662|00:16:05,364|RU3|WHAT ALI SOUFAN WITNESSED, AND
00:16:05,431|00:16:06,699|RU3|WHAT HE DID ABOUT IT, WHEN WE
00:16:06,765|00:16:09,001|RU3|COME BACK.
00:16:15,240|00:16:16,875|RU3|>> Logan: THE USE OF WATER-
00:16:16,942|00:16:18,043|RU3|BOARDING AND OTHER TOUGH NEW
00:16:18,110|00:16:19,545|RU3|METHODS KNOWN AS "ENHANCED
00:16:19,611|00:16:21,981|RU3|INTERROGATION TECHNIQUES" LED TO
00:16:22,047|00:16:24,249|RU3|A VERY PUBLIC DEBATE ABOUT
00:16:24,316|00:16:25,217|RU3|WHETHER THE U.S. WAS TORTURING
00:16:25,284|00:16:27,586|RU3|TERRORISM SUSPECTS.
00:16:27,653|00:16:28,754|RU3|THE VIDEOTAPES OF THOSE
00:16:28,821|00:16:31,623|RU3|INTERROGATIONS HAVE REPORTEDLY
00:16:31,690|00:16:32,691|RU3|BEEN DESTROYED, AND HARDLY
00:16:32,758|00:16:34,193|RU3|ANYONE WHO PARTICIPATED IN THEM
00:16:34,259|00:16:36,495|RU3|HAS SPOKEN PUBLICLY.
00:16:36,562|00:16:38,030|RU3|NOR HAS ENOUGH INFORMATION BEEN
00:16:38,097|00:16:42,601|RU3|MADE PUBLIC TO DETERMINE IF THE
00:16:42,668|00:16:43,235|RU3|TECHNIQUES WERE SUCCESSFUL.
00:16:43,302|00:16:44,470|RU3|BUT IN APRIL OF 2002, FBI AGENT
00:16:44,536|00:16:45,938|RU3|ALI SOUFAN WITNESSED THE
00:16:46,005|00:16:48,507|RU3|BEGINNING OF THE USE OF THESE
00:16:48,574|00:16:49,575|RU3|TECHNIQUES ON THE U.S.'s FIRST
00:16:49,641|00:16:51,777|RU3|HIGH-VALUE TERRORIST DETAINEE,
00:16:51,844|00:16:54,213|RU3|ABU ZUBAYDAH.
00:16:54,279|00:16:55,647|RU3|SOUFAN SAYS HE WAS MAKING GOOD
00:16:55,714|00:16:56,849|RU3|PROGRESS WITH ABU ZUBAYDAH
00:16:56,915|00:16:58,617|RU3|THROUGH TRADITIONAL METHODS OF
00:16:58,684|00:16:59,018|RU3|QUESTIONING.
00:16:59,084|00:17:00,386|RU3|BUT HE WAS TOLD THAT A CIA
00:17:00,452|00:17:01,854|RU3|CONTRACTOR, HIRED FOR HIS
00:17:01,920|00:17:05,391|RU3|INTERROGATION EXPERTISE, WOULD
00:17:05,457|00:17:06,492|RU3|BE TAKING CONTROL.
00:17:06,558|00:17:08,861|RU3|SOUFAN THEN WATCHED ON A CLOSED
00:17:08,927|00:17:10,629|RU3|CIRCUIT MONITOR AS A VERY
00:17:10,696|00:17:14,199|RU3|DIFFERENT APPROACH WAS USED.
00:17:14,266|00:17:15,467|RU3|>> Soufan: THE PLAN AT THE TIME
00:17:15,534|00:17:18,103|RU3|WAS TO GO IN AND TELL ABU
00:17:18,170|00:17:21,240|RU3|ZUBAYDAH ONE QUESTION.
00:17:21,306|00:17:21,840|RU3|TELL HIM, "TELL ME WHAT I WANT
00:17:21,907|00:17:23,308|RU3|TO KNOW."
00:17:23,375|00:17:24,543|RU3|AND IF ABU ZUBAYDAH SAID, "WHAT
00:17:24,610|00:17:27,413|RU3|DO YOU WANT TO KNOW?" OR ASK ANY
00:17:27,479|00:17:28,313|RU3|QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT, THE PERSON
00:17:28,380|00:17:31,083|RU3|IS TO WALK OUT.
00:17:31,150|00:17:31,884|RU3|AND SAY, "YOU KNOW," AND WALK
00:17:31,950|00:17:33,218|RU3|OUT.
00:17:33,285|00:17:36,088|RU3|AND THEN, THEY HAVE A CONTINUUM
00:17:36,155|00:17:37,289|RU3|OF TECHNIQUES LIKE... YOU KNOW,
00:17:37,356|00:17:38,991|RU3|IT STARTED WITH, LIKE, NUDITY.
00:17:39,058|00:17:42,728|RU3|AND THEN, YOU HAVE NOISE AND YOU
00:17:42,795|00:17:43,829|RU3|HAVE SLEEP DEPRIVATION.
00:17:43,896|00:17:44,463|RU3|AND IT GOES FROM ONE STAGE TO
00:17:44,530|00:17:45,597|RU3|ANOTHER, UNTIL HE DECIDES TO
00:17:45,664|00:17:46,865|RU3|COOPERATE.
00:17:46,932|00:17:47,866|RU3|>> Logan: THIS INDIVIDUAL, WHY
00:17:47,933|00:17:49,234|RU3|WERE THEY PUT IN CHARGE?
00:17:49,301|00:17:51,303|RU3|>> Soufan: I DON'T KNOW.
00:17:51,370|00:17:51,904|RU3|SUPPOSEDLY, HE'S AN EXPERT IN
00:17:51,970|00:17:54,306|RU3|THE FIELD.
00:17:54,373|00:17:54,973|RU3|SO I ASK HIM, "DO YOU KNOW
00:17:55,040|00:17:55,574|RU3|ANYTHING ABOUT ISLAMIC
00:17:55,641|00:17:56,909|RU3|FUNDAMENTALISM?"
00:17:56,975|00:17:58,610|RU3|HE SAID, "NO."
00:17:58,677|00:17:59,178|RU3|"HAVE YOU EVER INTERROGATED
00:17:59,244|00:18:01,513|RU3|ANYBODY?"
00:18:01,580|00:18:02,314|RU3|"NO."
00:18:02,381|00:18:02,948|RU3|HE BASICALLY SAID, NO, HE KNOWS
00:18:03,015|00:18:05,250|RU3|HUMAN NATURE.
00:18:05,317|00:18:06,351|RU3|>> Logan: AND HOW DOES ABU
00:18:06,418|00:18:07,786|RU3|ZUBAYDAH REACT TO THIS?
00:18:07,853|00:18:08,420|RU3|>> Soufan: HE BASICALLY STOPPED
00:18:08,487|00:18:10,489|RU3|COOPERATING.
00:18:10,556|00:18:11,123|RU3|>> Logan: THE INFORMATION DRIED
00:18:11,190|00:18:11,290|RU3|UP?
00:18:11,356|00:18:13,959|RU3|>> Soufan: YES, TOTALLY.
00:18:14,026|00:18:16,061|RU3|>> Logan: SOUFAN SAYS THAT,
00:18:16,128|00:18:17,062|RU3|AFTER SEVERAL DAYS WITH NOTHING
00:18:17,129|00:18:18,664|RU3|FROM ABU ZUBAYDAH, HE AND HIS
00:18:18,730|00:18:19,898|RU3|PARTNER AND A CIA INTERROGATOR
00:18:19,965|00:18:21,166|RU3|WERE ALLOWED TO START TALKING TO
00:18:21,233|00:18:23,602|RU3|HIM ONCE AGAIN.
00:18:23,669|00:18:25,838|RU3|AND THEY OBTAINED INFORMATION
00:18:25,904|00:18:27,139|RU3|THAT LED THE CIA AND THE FBI TO
00:18:27,206|00:18:28,707|RU3|CAPTURE THIS MAN, JOSE PADILLA,
00:18:28,774|00:18:32,711|RU3|THE AMERICAN CITIZEN ACCUSED OF
00:18:32,778|00:18:33,579|RU3|PLOTTING TO SET OFF A "DIRTY
00:18:33,645|00:18:35,848|RU3|BOMB" IN THE U.S.
00:18:35,914|00:18:37,015|RU3|SO YOUR FEELING IS, AT THIS
00:18:37,082|00:18:39,485|RU3|POINT, THAT YOUR TECHNIQUE
00:18:39,551|00:18:40,486|RU3|HAS... HAS STARTED TO WORK
00:18:40,552|00:18:41,120|RU3|AGAIN?
00:18:41,186|00:18:41,920|RU3|>> Soufan: WE... WE'RE BACK.
00:18:41,987|00:18:43,021|RU3|YEAH, NO, WE'RE BACK.
00:18:43,088|00:18:45,457|RU3|AND... AND MORE INFORMATION
00:18:45,524|00:18:48,393|RU3|STARTS COMING.
00:18:48,460|00:18:49,595|RU3|AND THEN, SUDDENLY, OUT OF THE
00:18:49,661|00:18:51,763|RU3|BLUE, THEY SAID, "WAIT A SECOND.
00:18:51,830|00:18:56,602|RU3|YOU GUYS ARE GOING TO BE OUT,
00:18:56,668|00:18:58,770|RU3|BECAUSE WE BELIEVE HE'S NOT
00:18:58,837|00:19:00,405|RU3|COOPERATING ANYMORE," WHICH WAS
00:19:00,472|00:19:02,741|RU3|REALLY SHOCKING FOR US TO HEAR.
00:19:02,808|00:19:03,642|RU3|>> Logan: SO WHAT DID YOU DO?
00:19:03,709|00:19:05,544|RU3|>> Soufan: WHAT CAN WE DO?
00:19:05,611|00:19:07,746|RU3|WE'RE WATCHING TIME PASS BY WITH
00:19:07,813|00:19:09,181|RU3|NOBODY TALKING TO A DETAINEE,
00:19:09,248|00:19:12,050|RU3|DAY AFTER DAY.
00:19:12,117|00:19:12,818|RU3|>> Logan: NO ONE EVEN SPOKE TO
00:19:12,885|00:19:13,785|RU3|HIM?
00:19:13,852|00:19:14,686|RU3|>> Soufan: NO, THEY GO IN.
00:19:14,753|00:19:15,287|RU3|THEY SAY, "TELL ME WHAT I WANT
00:19:15,354|00:19:16,155|RU3|TO KNOW."
00:19:16,221|00:19:17,456|RU3|HE SAYS, "WHAT DO YOU WANT TO
00:19:17,523|00:19:18,690|RU3|KNOW?"
00:19:18,757|00:19:20,826|RU3|AND YOU WALK OUT, PERIOD.
00:19:20,893|00:19:21,360|RU3|THAT'S IT.
00:19:21,426|00:19:22,694|RU3|THAT'S THE WHOLE INTERROGATION
00:19:22,761|00:19:24,796|RU3|"PLAN," IF YOU WANT TO CALL IT.
00:19:24,863|00:19:25,998|RU3|>> Logan: SO THERE'S SOMETHING
00:19:26,064|00:19:27,432|RU3|THAT HAPPENS.
00:19:27,499|00:19:28,634|RU3|IT ESCALATES TO A POINT WHERE
00:19:28,700|00:19:30,769|RU3|YOU DECIDE, THAT'S IT, YOU'RE
00:19:30,836|00:19:31,770|RU3|LEAVING.
00:19:31,837|00:19:32,471|RU3|WHAT IS IT?
00:19:32,538|00:19:33,272|RU3|>> Soufan: THERE WAS A
00:19:33,338|00:19:34,773|RU3|CONFINEMENT BOX.
00:19:34,840|00:19:35,340|RU3|>> Logan: THAT SOUNDS LIKE A
00:19:35,407|00:19:37,543|RU3|COFFIN.
00:19:37,609|00:19:40,612|RU3|>> Soufan: UH... "CONFINEMENT
00:19:40,679|00:19:41,713|RU3|BOX," AND I CAME ONE DAY, AND I
00:19:41,780|00:19:44,416|RU3|SAW IT IN THE FACILITY.
00:19:44,483|00:19:45,584|RU3|AND I THOUGHT, AT THE TIME, "WE
00:19:45,651|00:19:47,319|RU3|HAD THE GUY COOPERATING.
00:19:47,386|00:19:48,587|RU3|SO WHAT'S GOING ON?"
00:19:48,654|00:19:49,488|RU3|I MEAN, THAT BOX WAS NOT MADE
00:19:49,555|00:19:50,822|RU3|OVERNIGHT.
00:19:50,889|00:19:52,491|RU3|THERE'S SOMETHING GOING ON AND
00:19:52,558|00:19:53,959|RU3|WE DON'T KNOW ABOUT.
00:19:54,026|00:19:55,093|RU3|>> Logan: WHAT WAS THE BOX FOR?
00:19:55,160|00:19:58,230|RU3|>> Soufan: I DON'T KNOW.
00:19:58,297|00:19:59,464|RU3|I MEAN, DEFINITELY, IT'S... IT'S
00:19:59,531|00:20:01,767|RU3|FOR... FOR ABU ZUBAYDAH.
00:20:01,833|00:20:03,468|RU3|>> Logan: BUT THAT WAS NOT THE
00:20:03,535|00:20:05,237|RU3|KIND OF TECHNIQUE THAT YOU WERE
00:20:05,304|00:20:06,672|RU3|PREPARED TO STICK AROUND FOR?
00:20:06,738|00:20:08,607|RU3|>> Soufan: NO.
00:20:08,674|00:20:09,641|RU3|I JUST FELT THAT, LITERALLY,
00:20:09,708|00:20:12,911|RU3|"WE'RE PLAYING GAMES, AND I
00:20:12,978|00:20:14,646|RU3|REALLY CANNOT BE PART OF THIS."
00:20:14,713|00:20:15,280|RU3|>> Logan: SOUFAN CLAIMS HE
00:20:15,347|00:20:15,914|RU3|WASN'T THE ONLY PERSON THAT FELT
00:20:15,981|00:20:18,617|RU3|THAT WAY.
00:20:18,684|00:20:20,385|RU3|>> Soufan: AT LEAST ONE OF THE
00:20:20,452|00:20:21,486|RU3|CIA GUYS SAID, "YOU KNOW WHAT?
00:20:21,553|00:20:22,120|RU3|THAT'S NOT WORTH IT.
00:20:22,187|00:20:23,088|RU3|I'M NOT GOING TO DO THIS."
00:20:23,155|00:20:23,889|RU3|HE LEFT.
00:20:23,956|00:20:26,325|RU3|HE LEFT THE LOCATION...
00:20:26,391|00:20:27,159|RU3|>> Logan: ANOTHER CIA AGENT ON
00:20:27,226|00:20:27,759|RU3|THE GROUND?
00:20:27,826|00:20:28,393|RU3|>> Soufan: YEAH.
00:20:28,460|00:20:30,963|RU3|ACTUALLY, HE LEFT BEFORE ME.
00:20:31,029|00:20:32,497|RU3|AND THEN... AND THEN WE FINALLY
00:20:32,564|00:20:34,499|RU3|REPORTED TO HEADQUARTERS THAT,
00:20:34,566|00:20:35,834|RU3|YOU KNOW, "THIS IS WHAT'S
00:20:35,901|00:20:38,704|RU3|HAPPENING," AS I CALLED IT IN
00:20:38,770|00:20:40,706|RU3|THE D.O.J.-- DEPARTMENT OF
00:20:40,772|00:20:42,274|RU3|JUSTICE INSPECTOR GENERAL--
00:20:42,341|00:20:44,409|RU3|REPORT, "BORDERLINE TORTURE."
00:20:44,476|00:20:45,611|RU3|AND-- FBI HEADQUARTERS SAID,
00:20:45,677|00:20:47,045|RU3|"YOU KNOW... YOU KNOW WE DON'T
00:20:47,112|00:20:49,581|RU3|DO THAT, JUST..."
00:20:49,648|00:20:51,550|RU3|AND, EVENTUALLY, AFTER THAT,
00:20:51,617|00:20:53,085|RU3|THEY PULLED ALL FBI AGENTS FROM
00:20:53,151|00:20:56,221|RU3|HIGH-VALUE DETAINEES
00:20:56,288|00:20:57,856|RU3|INTERROGATIONS.
00:20:57,923|00:20:59,091|RU3|>> Logan: SOUFAN NEVER SAW ABU
00:20:59,157|00:21:01,093|RU3|ZUBAYDAH AGAIN, AND ONLY
00:21:01,159|00:21:01,860|RU3|OCCASIONALLY SAW THESE
00:21:01,927|00:21:03,862|RU3|TECHNIQUES BEING USED AFTER
00:21:03,929|00:21:05,063|RU3|THAT, BUT HE CLAIMS THAT WHEN
00:21:05,130|00:21:09,434|RU3|PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH ADDRESSED
00:21:09,501|00:21:10,869|RU3|THE NATION IN 2006, THE AMERICAN
00:21:10,969|00:21:12,704|RU3|PEOPLE WERE BEING MISLED.
00:21:12,771|00:21:13,438|RU3|>> President George Bush: WE
00:21:13,505|00:21:14,773|RU3|KNEW THAT ZUBAYDAH HAD MORE
00:21:14,840|00:21:16,575|RU3|INFORMATION THAT COULD SAVE
00:21:16,642|00:21:18,844|RU3|INNOCENT LIVES, BUT HE STOPPED
00:21:18,910|00:21:20,012|RU3|TALKING.
00:21:20,078|00:21:21,346|RU3|IT BECAME CLEAR THAT HE HAD
00:21:21,413|00:21:23,315|RU3|RECEIVED TRAINING ON HOW TO
00:21:23,382|00:21:28,120|RU3|RESIST INTERROGATION.
00:21:28,186|00:21:28,720|RU3|AND SO THE CIA USED AN
00:21:28,787|00:21:29,788|RU3|ALTERNATIVE SET OF PROCEDURES.
00:21:29,855|00:21:31,290|RU3|>> Soufan: I THINK SOMEBODY TOLD
00:21:31,356|00:21:34,359|RU3|THE PRESIDENT SOME FAKE
00:21:34,426|00:21:34,926|RU3|INFORMATION, SOME FALSE
00:21:34,993|00:21:37,996|RU3|INFORMATION.
00:21:38,063|00:21:38,597|RU3|ZUBAYDAH DID NOT STOP TALKING;
00:21:38,664|00:21:39,865|RU3|INTRODUCING THE TECHNIQUES MADE
00:21:39,931|00:21:42,134|RU3|HIM STOP TALKING.
00:21:42,200|00:21:43,035|RU3|>> Logan: SOUFAN ARGUES THAT
00:21:43,101|00:21:44,770|RU3|TERRORISTS LIKE ABU ZUBAYDAH
00:21:44,836|00:21:45,771|RU3|HAVE BEEN TRAINED TO EXPECT
00:21:45,837|00:21:47,639|RU3|EXTREMELY BRUTAL TREATMENT IN
00:21:47,706|00:21:49,975|RU3|MIDDLE EASTERN PRISONS, WHICH IS
00:21:50,042|00:21:51,043|RU3|ONE REASON HE BELIEVES ENHANCED
00:21:51,109|00:21:52,311|RU3|INTERROGATION TECHNIQUES ARE NOT
00:21:52,377|00:21:55,480|RU3|EFFECTIVE.
00:21:55,547|00:21:56,515|RU3|>> Soufan: IF YOU LOOK AT THEM
00:21:56,581|00:21:57,749|RU3|FROM AN AMERICAN PERSPECTIVE,
00:21:57,816|00:21:58,283|RU3|YOU WILL SAY, "WOW, THAT'S
00:21:58,350|00:21:59,651|RU3|TORTURE."
00:21:59,718|00:22:01,553|RU3|BUT REALLY, THAT'S LIKE SAYING
00:22:01,620|00:22:02,254|RU3|HELLO IN SOME JAIL IN THE MIDDLE
00:22:02,321|00:22:05,023|RU3|EAST.
00:22:05,090|00:22:05,691|RU3|I MEAN, THE... LITERALLY, THIS
00:22:05,757|00:22:06,291|RU3|IS NOT THE TORTURE THAT THESE
00:22:06,358|00:22:09,428|RU3|GUYS ARE EXPECTING.
00:22:09,494|00:22:11,330|RU3|SO WHY DO WE START GOING ON A
00:22:11,396|00:22:14,232|RU3|PATH THAT EVENTUALLY WE'RE GOING
00:22:14,299|00:22:16,568|RU3|TO HIT A GLASS CEILING?
00:22:16,635|00:22:17,302|RU3|AND WHEN YOU HIT THE GLASS
00:22:17,369|00:22:18,970|RU3|CEILING, WHAT DO YOU DO?
00:22:19,037|00:22:20,439|RU3|>> Logan: WHAT DO YOU DO?
00:22:20,505|00:22:21,039|RU3|>> Soufan: THE DETAINEE CALLS
00:22:21,106|00:22:22,174|RU3|YOUR BLUFF.
00:22:22,240|00:22:23,241|RU3|YOU CANNOT GO BACK AND SAY, "I'M
00:22:23,308|00:22:25,377|RU3|GOING TO BUILD A RAPPORT."
00:22:25,444|00:22:26,578|RU3|THAT'S WHY YOU KEEP REPEATING
00:22:26,645|00:22:28,080|RU3|THE GLASS CEILING AGAIN AND
00:22:28,146|00:22:31,650|RU3|AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN.
00:22:31,717|00:22:33,685|RU3|ABU ZUBAYDAH WAS WATER-BOARDED
00:22:33,752|00:22:36,455|RU3|83 TIMES; KHALID SHEIKH
00:22:36,521|00:22:38,223|RU3|MOHAMMED, 183 TIMES.
00:22:38,290|00:22:39,725|RU3|WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU?
00:22:39,791|00:22:40,359|RU3|DOES THAT TELL YOU THE TECHNIQUE
00:22:40,425|00:22:42,127|RU3|IS WORKING?
00:22:42,194|00:22:43,261|RU3|>> Logan: A NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN
00:22:43,328|00:22:44,363|RU3|THE CIA AND THE INTELLIGENCE
00:22:44,429|00:22:46,098|RU3|COMMUNITY TOLD US THAT ABU
00:22:46,164|00:22:49,267|RU3|ZUBAYDAH DID GIVE UP INFORMATION
00:22:49,334|00:22:50,635|RU3|AFTER HE WAS WATER-BOARDED,
00:22:50,702|00:22:52,204|RU3|WHICH THEY SAY HELPED SAVE
00:22:52,270|00:22:54,139|RU3|AMERICAN LIVES, AND THAT, ALL
00:22:54,206|00:22:55,207|RU3|MORAL QUESTIONS ASIDE, THE
00:22:55,273|00:22:56,174|RU3|ENHANCED INTERROGATION PROGRAM
00:22:56,241|00:22:57,376|RU3|YIELDED SIGNIFICANT
00:22:57,442|00:23:00,078|RU3|INTELLIGENCE, INCLUDING
00:23:00,145|00:23:02,581|RU3|INFORMATION THAT CONTRIBUTED TO
00:23:02,647|00:23:06,084|RU3|THE KILLING OF OSAMA BIN LADEN.
00:23:06,151|00:23:07,786|RU3|AT LEAST TWO FORMER DIRECTORS OF
00:23:07,853|00:23:09,354|RU3|THE CIA, GEORGE TENET AND
00:23:09,421|00:23:11,723|RU3|MICHAEL HAYDEN, SAY THAT
00:23:11,790|00:23:13,091|RU3|ENHANCED INTERROGATION
00:23:13,158|00:23:14,326|RU3|TECHNIQUES DO WORK.
00:23:14,393|00:23:15,460|RU3|>> Soufan: SURE, SURE.
00:23:15,527|00:23:16,328|RU3|>> Logan: THEY HAVE ACCESS TO
00:23:16,395|00:23:18,130|RU3|MORE INTELLIGENCE THAN YOU.
00:23:18,196|00:23:19,297|RU3|>> Soufan: ABSOLUTELY.
00:23:19,364|00:23:20,198|RU3|>> Logan: IF YOU DON'T KNOW
00:23:20,265|00:23:21,233|RU3|EVERYTHING, HOW CAN YOU BE SO
00:23:21,299|00:23:22,801|RU3|SURE THAT THEY DON'T WORK?
00:23:22,868|00:23:24,035|RU3|>> Soufan: BECAUSE I AM PRIVY TO
00:23:24,102|00:23:25,537|RU3|A LOT OF INFORMATION THAT ALSO
00:23:25,604|00:23:27,005|RU3|I'M NOT TELLING YOU HERE.
00:23:27,072|00:23:27,806|RU3|>> Logan: BUT IS IT POSSIBLE FOR
00:23:27,873|00:23:30,041|RU3|YOU TO KNOW ALL THE INFORMATION,
00:23:30,108|00:23:32,010|RU3|EVERYTHING THAT MAY OR MAY NOT
00:23:32,077|00:23:32,744|RU3|HAVE BEEN GAINED FROM THESE
00:23:32,811|00:23:34,980|RU3|TECHNIQUES?
00:23:35,046|00:23:35,614|RU3|>> Soufan: I'M NOT CLAIMING THAT
00:23:35,680|00:23:37,048|RU3|I KNOW EVERYTHING.
00:23:37,115|00:23:38,683|RU3|I KNOW WHAT I KNOW.
00:23:38,750|00:23:40,085|RU3|>> Logan: THE ONE THING THAT HAS
00:23:40,152|00:23:42,554|RU3|CAUSED ALI SOUFAN MORE ANGUISH
00:23:42,621|00:23:45,290|RU3|THAN ANYTHING ELSE IS THE
00:23:45,357|00:23:46,691|RU3|THOUGHT THAT THE EVENTS OF 9/11
00:23:46,758|00:23:47,325|RU3|MIGHT HAVE BEEN PREVENTED-- IF,
00:23:47,392|00:23:50,629|RU3|HE SAYS, THE CIA HAD SHARED
00:23:50,695|00:23:52,664|RU3|CERTAIN INFORMATION WITH HIM AND
00:23:52,731|00:23:54,232|RU3|HIS FBI TEAM.
00:23:54,299|00:23:56,201|RU3|WHILE THEY WERE INVESTIGATING
00:23:56,268|00:23:59,771|RU3|THE ATTACK ON THE U.S.S. "COLE"
00:23:59,838|00:24:03,208|RU3|IN NOVEMBER 2000, SOUFAN'S TEAM
00:24:03,275|00:24:04,643|RU3|LEARNED THAT THIS AL QAEDA
00:24:04,709|00:24:05,377|RU3|OPERATIVE HAD MET WITH OTHER
00:24:05,444|00:24:06,011|RU3|TERRORISTS IN ASIA AND RECEIVED
00:24:06,077|00:24:06,678|RU3|A LARGE SUM OF MONEY.
00:24:06,745|00:24:09,247|RU3|SOUFAN SAYS HE ASKED THE CIA IF
00:24:09,314|00:24:11,316|RU3|IT KNEW WHAT THIS OPERATIVE WAS
00:24:11,383|00:24:14,519|RU3|UP TO.
00:24:14,586|00:24:15,487|RU3|YOU MADE THREE FORMAL REQUESTS
00:24:15,554|00:24:17,122|RU3|TO THE CIA...
00:24:17,189|00:24:24,796|RU3|>> Soufan: THERE WAS THREE
00:24:24,863|00:24:27,599|RU3|FORMAL REQUESTS.
00:24:27,666|00:24:28,166|RU3|>> Logan: ...THROUGH THE FBI
00:24:28,233|00:24:28,567|RU3|CHAIN?
00:24:28,633|00:24:29,034|RU3|>> Soufan: RIGHT.
00:24:29,100|00:24:29,801|RU3|>> Logan: AND TIME AND AGAIN,
00:24:29,868|00:24:30,402|RU3|THE CIA TELL YOU WHAT?
00:24:30,469|00:24:30,969|RU3|>> Soufan: THEY DON'T KNOW
00:24:31,036|00:24:31,436|RU3|ANYTHING.
00:24:31,503|00:24:32,137|RU3|>> Logan: BUT SOUFAN SAYS HE
00:24:32,204|00:24:32,737|RU3|LATER LEARNED THE CIA KNEW,
00:24:32,804|00:24:33,705|RU3|EIGHT MONTHS BEFORE 9/11, THAT
00:24:33,772|00:24:34,306|RU3|THIS SAME OPERATIVE HAD MET IN
00:24:34,372|00:24:35,307|RU3|MALAYSIA WITH TWO TERRORISM
00:24:35,373|00:24:35,941|RU3|SUSPECTS WHO WOULD LATER HIJACK
00:24:36,007|00:24:36,575|RU3|THE PLANE THAT CRASHED INTO THE
00:24:36,641|00:24:36,875|RU3|PENTAGON.
00:24:36,942|00:24:37,843|RU3|AND THE CIA ALSO KNEW THAT THOSE
00:24:37,909|00:24:38,877|RU3|TWO SUSPECTS WERE HEADING TO THE
00:24:38,944|00:24:42,347|RU3|U.S.
00:24:42,414|00:24:43,415|RU3|>> Soufan: THE AGENCY KNEW THAT
00:24:43,482|00:24:45,183|RU3|THESE AL QAEDA OPERATIVES IN
00:24:45,250|00:24:46,184|RU3|SOUTHEAST ASIA FLEW TO AMERICA,
00:24:46,251|00:24:47,018|RU3|OR THEY HAVE VISAS TO COME TO
00:24:47,085|00:24:48,753|RU3|THE UNITED STATES, AND SOMEBODY
00:24:48,820|00:24:49,621|RU3|DECIDED, "LET'S NOT SHARE THE
00:24:49,688|00:24:51,323|RU3|INFORMATION."
00:24:51,389|00:24:52,357|RU3|>> Logan: AND IF IT HAD BEEN
00:24:52,424|00:24:54,793|RU3|SHARED WITH YOU, WHAT THEN?
00:24:54,860|00:24:56,228|RU3|>> Soufan: I TRY NOT TO THINK
00:24:56,294|00:24:57,629|RU3|ABOUT THAT.
00:24:57,696|00:24:58,864|RU3|I TRY NOT TO THINK ABOUT...
00:24:58,930|00:25:01,666|RU3|ABOUT WHAT COULD HAVE HAPPENED.
00:25:01,733|00:25:05,770|RU3|MAYBE... MAYBE THOUSANDS OF
00:25:05,837|00:25:08,273|RU3|AMERICAN LIVES WILL BE SPARED,
00:25:08,340|00:25:10,542|RU3|MAYBE.
00:25:10,609|00:25:11,910|RU3|>> Logan: THE CIA TOLD US ANY
00:25:11,977|00:25:14,079|RU3|SUGGESTION IT PURPOSELY REFUSED
00:25:14,145|00:25:16,781|RU3|TO SHARE CRITICAL INFORMATION ON
00:25:16,848|00:25:18,617|RU3|THE 9/11 PLOTS WITH THE FBI IS
00:25:18,683|00:25:21,119|RU3|"BASELESS" AND "THESE
00:25:21,186|00:25:22,687|RU3|ALLEGATIONS DIMINISH THE HARD
00:25:22,754|00:25:23,688|RU3|WORK AND DEDICATION OF COUNTLESS
00:25:23,755|00:25:26,591|RU3|CIA OFFICERS."
00:25:26,658|00:25:28,126|RU3|ALI SOUFAN LEFT THE FBI SIX
00:25:28,193|00:25:29,828|RU3|YEARS AGO AND, TODAY, HE RUNS A
00:25:29,895|00:25:31,196|RU3|SECURITY CONSULTING COMPANY
00:25:31,263|00:25:37,602|RU3|BASED IN NEW YORK.
00:25:37,669|00:25:38,203|RU3|HE TOLD US HE HASN'T BEEN TO
00:25:38,270|00:25:39,104|RU3|GROUND ZERO SINCE THE FIRST
00:25:39,170|00:25:40,739|RU3|ANNIVERSARY OF 9/11, AND THERE'S
00:25:40,805|00:25:41,940|RU3|A REASON FOR THAT.
00:25:42,007|00:25:42,774|RU3|>> Soufan: MAYBE I'M ONE OF
00:25:42,841|00:25:43,441|RU3|THESE PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T GET OVER
00:25:43,508|00:25:44,943|RU3|IT.
00:25:45,010|00:25:47,879|RU3|>> Logan: CAN YOU TELL ME WHY?
00:25:47,946|00:25:49,381|RU3|>> Soufan: YOU KNOW, MAYBE PART
00:25:49,447|00:25:50,081|RU3|OF ME FEELS GUILTY.
00:25:50,148|00:25:53,285|RU3|MAYBE PART OF ME FEELS SOME SORT
00:25:53,351|00:25:55,387|RU3|OF RESPONSIBILITY OF WHAT
00:25:55,453|00:25:57,155|RU3|HAPPENED.
00:25:57,222|00:25:57,856|RU3|>> Logan: BUT YOU DID YOUR BEST.
00:25:57,923|00:25:58,757|RU3|YOU GAVE YOUR ALL.
00:25:58,823|00:26:00,592|RU3|WHY WOULD YOU FEEL GUILTY?
00:26:00,659|00:26:02,360|RU3|>> Soufan: IF YOU WANT TO BE
00:26:02,427|00:26:03,662|RU3|TRUTHFUL WITH YOURSELF, VERY
00:26:03,728|00:26:05,397|RU3|DIFFICULT WHAT YOU FEEL... AND
00:26:05,463|00:26:06,531|RU3|NOT TO KIND OF LIKE FEEL THAT,
00:26:06,598|00:26:07,666|RU3|YOU KNOW, "MAYBE I COULD'VE DONE
00:26:07,732|00:26:13,104|RU3|SOMETHING."
00:26:13,171|00:26:14,306|RU3|>> Logan: IS THAT WHY IT'S HARD
00:26:14,372|00:26:15,574|RU3|FOR YOU TO GO TO GROUND ZERO?
00:26:15,640|00:26:18,710|RU3|>> Soufan: YEAH.
00:26:18,777|00:26:20,011|RU3|ACTUALLY, I WENT THERE ONCE, ON
00:26:20,078|00:26:20,612|RU3|THE... THE FIRST ANNIVERSARY,
00:26:20,679|00:26:21,112|RU3|BUT THAT'S IT.
00:26:21,179|00:26:21,947|RU3|>> Logan: IT'S HARD FOR ANYONE
00:26:22,013|00:26:23,281|RU3|TO GO THERE, BUT... BUT...
00:26:23,348|00:26:23,848|RU3|>> Soufan: YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.
00:26:23,915|00:26:24,449|RU3|>> Logan: WHY SO HARD FOR YOU,
00:26:24,516|00:26:25,083|RU3|ALI?
00:26:25,150|00:26:31,156|RU3|>> Soufan: I DON'T KNOW.
00:26:31,222|00:26:35,226|RU3|I DON'T KNOW.
00:26:43,501|00:26:47,939|RU3|>> Pelley: ON 9/11, DR. BENJAMIN
00:26:48,006|00:26:48,907|RU3|LUFT PREPARED STONY BROOK
00:26:48,974|00:26:50,208|RU3|UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER ON
00:26:50,275|00:26:51,276|RU3|LONG ISLAND FOR THE MASSIVE
00:26:51,343|00:26:52,611|RU3|NUMBER OF CASUALTIES HE EXPECTED
00:26:52,677|00:26:54,946|RU3|TO OVERWHELM THE EMERGENCY ROOM.
00:26:55,013|00:26:56,781|RU3|BUT NONE CAME THROUGH THE DOOR
00:26:56,848|00:26:59,918|RU3|THAT DAY, SO FEW HAD SURVIVED.
00:26:59,985|00:27:01,186|RU3|AS IT TURNED OUT, DR. LUFT'S
00:27:01,252|00:27:02,687|RU3|CASUALTIES WERE COMING, BUT THEY
00:27:02,754|00:27:06,024|RU3|WOULD ARRIVE MUCH LATER.
00:27:06,091|00:27:09,394|RU3|ALTHOUGH NEARLY 3,000 PEOPLE
00:27:09,461|00:27:10,562|RU3|WERE KILLED AT THE WORLD TRADE
00:27:10,629|00:27:12,230|RU3|CENTER, 70,000 OTHERS RESPONDED
00:27:12,297|00:27:13,331|RU3|TO GROUND ZERO AND WORKED FOR
00:27:13,398|00:27:14,399|RU3|MONTHS AMID TOXIC SMOKE AND
00:27:14,466|00:27:17,268|RU3|DUST.
00:27:17,335|00:27:18,937|RU3|DR. LUFT HELPED START A CLINIC
00:27:19,004|00:27:19,738|RU3|TO TREAT THE CHRONIC ILLNESSES
00:27:19,804|00:27:21,439|RU3|AND PSYCHOLOGICAL TRAUMA
00:27:21,506|00:27:24,142|RU3|SUFFERED BY THE 9/11 RESPONDERS.
00:27:24,209|00:27:26,845|RU3|OVER TIME, LUFT DISCOVERED
00:27:26,911|00:27:28,546|RU3|SOMETHING THAT HE NEVER
00:27:28,613|00:27:31,683|RU3|EXPECTED-- HE BEGAN TO HEAR
00:27:31,750|00:27:32,984|RU3|THEIR STORIES; HONEST, RAW,
00:27:33,051|00:27:34,285|RU3|IRREPLACEABLE STORIES.
00:27:34,352|00:27:35,620|RU3|AND ALMOST TWO YEARS AGO, HE
00:27:35,687|00:27:37,088|RU3|BEGAN TO RECORD THE DEFINITIVE
00:27:37,155|00:27:42,861|RU3|HISTORY OF GROUND ZERO,
00:27:42,927|00:27:43,762|RU3|REMEMBERING 9/11 IN THE WORDS OF
00:27:43,828|00:27:45,764|RU3|THE PEOPLE WHO LIVED IT.
00:27:45,830|00:27:46,998|RU3|>> Dr. Benjamin Luft: THE
00:27:47,065|00:27:48,066|RU3|PROBLEM THAT CAME UP WAS THAT
00:27:48,133|00:27:49,267|RU3|OUR SOCIETY BEGAN TO LOOK AT THE
00:27:49,334|00:27:49,868|RU3|RESPONDERS IN TERMS OF THEIR
00:27:49,934|00:27:51,970|RU3|DISEASE.
00:27:52,037|00:27:54,005|RU3|THEY BECAME AN ISSUE IN TERMS OF
00:27:54,072|00:27:55,573|RU3|THEIR LIABILITY.
00:27:55,640|00:27:58,443|RU3|AND MY FEELING WAS THAT THAT'S
00:27:58,510|00:27:59,611|RU3|NOT WHO THE RESPONDERS WERE.
00:27:59,678|00:28:01,579|RU3|LET'S FIND OUT WHO THEY ARE AS
00:28:01,646|00:28:03,448|RU3|HUMAN BEINGS-- WHAT THEIR
00:28:03,515|00:28:07,085|RU3|MOTIVATION WAS, WHAT VALUES THEY
00:28:07,152|00:28:08,753|RU3|HAD, WHAT SACRIFICES THEY MADE,
00:28:08,820|00:28:09,954|RU3|HOW THEY WERE ABLE TO RENEW
00:28:10,021|00:28:11,489|RU3|THEMSELVES.
00:28:11,556|00:28:12,390|RU3|IT WAS ALMOST TAKE... LIKE
00:28:12,457|00:28:13,792|RU3|TAKING A CIVICS CLASS AS TO WHAT
00:28:13,858|00:28:16,094|RU3|IS IMPORTANT ABOUT BEING A
00:28:16,161|00:28:17,796|RU3|CITIZEN.
00:28:17,862|00:28:19,064|RU3|WHAT IS IMPORTANT ABOUT BEING A
00:28:19,130|00:28:20,031|RU3|HUMAN BEING?
00:28:20,098|00:28:21,166|RU3|WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO BEING AN
00:28:21,232|00:28:23,034|RU3|AMERICAN?
00:28:23,101|00:28:24,436|RU3|>> Stacey Goodman: I WORKED AT
00:28:24,502|00:28:27,005|RU3|THE MAKESHIFT MORGUE.
00:28:27,072|00:28:30,675|RU3|WE TOOK IN ALL THE BODIES, YOU
00:28:30,742|00:28:36,047|RU3|KNOW?
00:28:36,114|00:28:38,516|RU3|SAYING, "I'M SORRY FOR YOUR
00:28:38,583|00:28:40,585|RU3|LOSS" WAS VERY DIFFICULT,
00:28:40,652|00:28:42,854|RU3|BECAUSE THAT ALMOST GOT TO BE
00:28:42,921|00:28:44,589|RU3|LIKE ROTE, YOU KNOW?
00:28:44,656|00:28:46,591|RU3|>> Pelley: STACEY GOODMAN, A
00:28:46,658|00:28:48,460|RU3|POLICE DETECTIVE, IS ONE OF THE
00:28:48,526|00:28:50,562|RU3|VOICES DR. LUFT RECORDED IN WHAT
00:28:50,628|00:28:51,229|RU3|IS NOW CALLED THE WORLD TRADE
00:28:51,296|00:28:56,735|RU3|CENTER ORAL HISTORY PROJECT.
00:28:56,801|00:28:57,335|RU3|>> Goodman: AT ONE POINT, THIS
00:28:57,402|00:28:58,036|RU3|SENIOR... I THINK HE WAS A
00:28:58,103|00:29:00,705|RU3|RETIRED FIREMAN, HE COMES IN.
00:29:00,772|00:29:02,240|RU3|HIS HANDS ARE CUPPED.
00:29:02,307|00:29:06,111|RU3|AND HE'S GOT BONES IN HIS HANDS.
00:29:06,177|00:29:06,711|RU3|AND HE GOES UP TO THE MEDICAL
00:29:06,778|00:29:09,047|RU3|EXAMINER AND HE PUTS THE BONES
00:29:09,114|00:29:09,681|RU3|IN FRONT OF HIM AND HE GOES,
00:29:09,748|00:29:16,454|RU3|"THIS IS MY SON."
00:29:16,521|00:29:17,589|RU3|WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT?
00:29:17,655|00:29:23,061|RU3|( SNIFFS )
00:29:23,128|00:29:24,596|RU3|>> Pelley: NO ONE COULD POSSIBLY
00:29:24,662|00:29:26,197|RU3|KNOW 9/11 THE WAY THESE PEOPLE
00:29:26,264|00:29:27,232|RU3|DO.
00:29:27,298|00:29:29,000|RU3|WE ASKED SEVERAL OF THE
00:29:29,067|00:29:29,868|RU3|RESPONDERS TO GIVE US A SENSE OF
00:29:29,934|00:29:32,203|RU3|THE HOURS OF TESTIMONY THAT
00:29:32,270|00:29:33,371|RU3|THEY'VE PUT INTO DR. LUFT'S
00:29:33,438|00:29:34,272|RU3|PROJECT.
00:29:34,339|00:29:35,673|RU3|>> Carol Paukner: THE DEBRIS AND
00:29:35,740|00:29:38,409|RU3|THE PEOPLE RUSHING OUT AT US, I
00:29:38,476|00:29:39,244|RU3|COULDN'T EVEN MAKE IT TO TOWER
00:29:39,310|00:29:40,712|RU3|ONE.
00:29:40,779|00:29:41,646|RU3|I MADE IT TO THE BASE OF TOWER
00:29:41,713|00:29:43,014|RU3|TWO.
00:29:43,081|00:29:44,482|RU3|>> Pelley: CAROL PAUKNER WAS A
00:29:44,549|00:29:45,383|RU3|COP, ON THE SCENE BEFORE THE
00:29:45,450|00:29:47,886|RU3|TOWERS FELL.
00:29:47,952|00:29:51,689|RU3|>> Paukner: THIS BIG, BRAWLY FBI
00:29:51,756|00:29:52,357|RU3|GUY HAD HIS SHIELD AROUND HIS
00:29:52,423|00:29:54,058|RU3|NECK.
00:29:54,125|00:29:55,026|RU3|AND, YOU KNOW, I LOOKED UP AT
00:29:55,093|00:29:56,127|RU3|HIM AND HE'S TELLING... THERE
00:29:56,194|00:29:58,296|RU3|WAS ABOUT SIX OFFICERS THERE
00:29:58,363|00:30:01,866|RU3|WITH ME, AND HE'S LIKE, "IF YOU
00:30:01,933|00:30:02,467|RU3|WANT TO LIVE, YOU... YOU MIGHT
00:30:02,534|00:30:03,968|RU3|AS WELL LEAVE NOW."
00:30:04,035|00:30:05,303|RU3|HE SAID, "WE'RE ALL GOING TO
00:30:05,370|00:30:07,071|RU3|DIE."
00:30:07,138|00:30:07,739|RU3|AND I'M LIKE, "I CAN'T... WE
00:30:07,806|00:30:08,740|RU3|CAN'T LEAVE.
00:30:08,807|00:30:10,575|RU3|I'M... I'M NOT LEAVING."
00:30:10,642|00:30:11,776|RU3|AND THE OFFICERS THAT I WERE
00:30:11,843|00:30:13,444|RU3|THERE WITH, "WE'RE NOT LEAVING,
00:30:13,511|00:30:14,112|RU3|EITHER."
00:30:14,179|00:30:16,181|RU3|AND WE CONTINUED TO EVACUATE AND
00:30:16,247|00:30:18,716|RU3|DO OUR JOBS BUT, YOU KNOW, WE
00:30:18,783|00:30:19,417|RU3|WERE ALL LIKE, "WOW, WE'RE GOING
00:30:19,484|00:30:21,286|RU3|TO DIE," YOU KNOW?
00:30:21,352|00:30:22,954|RU3|>> Pelley: PAUKNER WAS TRAPPED
00:30:23,021|00:30:25,356|RU3|WHEN THE FIRST TOWER COLLAPSED.
00:30:25,423|00:30:26,324|RU3|THAT'S HER, ON THE LEFT, AFTER
00:30:26,391|00:30:27,258|RU3|SHE PULLED HERSELF OUT OF THE
00:30:27,325|00:30:30,662|RU3|WRECKAGE.
00:30:30,728|00:30:31,496|RU3|SHE'S WITH A FELLOW COP AND A
00:30:31,563|00:30:32,163|RU3|WOMAN THAT THEY RESCUED.
00:30:32,230|00:30:33,097|RU3|>> Richard Doerler: I WAS ONE OF
00:30:33,164|00:30:34,499|RU3|THE GUYS WHO WAS ABLE TO PULL
00:30:34,566|00:30:35,934|RU3|SOMEONE OUT ALIVE.
00:30:36,000|00:30:36,968|RU3|>> Pelley: SO FEW WERE SAVED,
00:30:37,035|00:30:38,036|RU3|BUT POLICE SERGEANT RICHARD
00:30:38,102|00:30:40,271|RU3|DOERLER HELPED PULL OUT ONE RARE
00:30:40,338|00:30:42,273|RU3|SURVIVOR, A FELLOW COP NAMED
00:30:42,340|00:30:42,807|RU3|JOHN McLOUGHLIN.
00:30:42,874|00:30:44,409|RU3|>> Doerler: THEY WERE GIVING...
00:30:44,475|00:30:47,278|RU3|JOHN WAS... GIVING JOHN
00:30:47,345|00:30:49,047|RU3|McLOUGHLIN MORPHINE BECAUSE
00:30:49,113|00:30:51,850|RU3|THE... THE PLAN WAS THAT, IF WE
00:30:51,916|00:30:52,417|RU3|COULDN'T EXTRICATE HIM, THEY
00:30:52,483|00:30:55,620|RU3|WERE GOING TO CUT HIS LEGS OFF.
00:30:55,687|00:30:57,188|RU3|JOHN SCREAMED IN PAIN WHILE WE
00:30:57,255|00:30:59,657|RU3|PULLED HIM, INITIALLY, SO WE LET
00:30:59,724|00:31:03,795|RU3|HIM REST.
00:31:03,862|00:31:04,429|RU3|AND WE SIMULTANEOUSLY PULLED
00:31:04,495|00:31:05,530|RU3|AGAIN AND WE BROKE HIM FREE AND
00:31:05,597|00:31:14,505|RU3|PULLED HIM OUT.
00:31:14,572|00:31:16,474|RU3|>> Luft: WANT YOU TAKE SOME NICE
00:31:16,541|00:31:17,976|RU3|DEEP BREATHS.
00:31:18,042|00:31:19,577|RU3|>> Pelley: BENJAMIN LUFT IS A
00:31:19,644|00:31:21,579|RU3|MEDICAL DOCTOR WHO VOLUNTEERED
00:31:21,646|00:31:22,881|RU3|TO HELP CREATE A CLINIC FOR THE
00:31:22,947|00:31:26,351|RU3|9/11 RESPONDERS AT STONY BROOK
00:31:26,417|00:31:27,151|RU3|UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER, PART
00:31:27,218|00:31:27,752|RU3|OF THE STATE UNIVERSITY OF NEW
00:31:27,819|00:31:29,254|RU3|YORK.
00:31:29,320|00:31:30,822|RU3|MORE THAN 6,000 RESPONDERS
00:31:30,889|00:31:32,323|RU3|ENROLLED IN HIS WORLD TRADE
00:31:32,390|00:31:35,426|RU3|CENTER HEALTH PROGRAM.
00:31:35,493|00:31:36,594|RU3|ONE STUDY SHOWS THAT NEARLY A
00:31:36,661|00:31:38,196|RU3|THIRD OF THOSE WHO WORKED AT
00:31:38,263|00:31:41,599|RU3|GROUND ZERO HAVE ASTHMA, 42%
00:31:41,666|00:31:42,867|RU3|SUFFER WITH SINUSITIS, NEARLY
00:31:42,934|00:31:48,273|RU3|40% HAVE GASTRO-ESOPHAGEAL
00:31:48,339|00:31:50,408|RU3|REFLUX DISEASE, KNOWN AS "GERD";
00:31:50,475|00:31:51,209|RU3|AND MANY HAVE REACTIVE AIRWAYS
00:31:51,276|00:31:52,677|RU3|DYSFUNCTION SYNDROME THAT THE
00:31:52,744|00:31:55,380|RU3|PATIENTS JUST CALL "RADS."
00:31:55,446|00:31:57,148|RU3|>> Luft: WHEN YOU'RE A PHYSICIAN
00:31:57,215|00:31:58,783|RU3|AND YOU SEE PATIENTS, YOU TEND
00:31:58,850|00:32:00,785|RU3|TO REDUCE THEM TO THEIR SYMPTOMS
00:32:00,852|00:32:02,120|RU3|AND SIGNS, TO THEIR MEDICAL
00:32:02,186|00:32:03,354|RU3|CONDITIONS.
00:32:03,421|00:32:04,489|RU3|AND THAT'S HOW YOU THINK OF
00:32:04,555|00:32:04,989|RU3|THEM.
00:32:05,056|00:32:06,024|RU3|>> Pelley: LUFT LISTENED TO
00:32:06,090|00:32:06,891|RU3|THEIR STORIES IN THE EXAMINING
00:32:06,958|00:32:10,495|RU3|ROOM FOR EIGHT YEARS WHEN HE
00:32:10,561|00:32:11,763|RU3|REALIZED THAT HIS PATIENTS WERE
00:32:11,829|00:32:13,831|RU3|THE AUTHORS OF ONE OF THE MOST
00:32:13,898|00:32:14,799|RU3|DRAMATIC CHAPTERS OF AMERICAN
00:32:14,866|00:32:17,201|RU3|HISTORY.
00:32:17,268|00:32:18,069|RU3|>> Luft: YOUR STORY OF WHAT
00:32:18,136|00:32:20,038|RU3|HAPPENED ON 9/11.
00:32:20,104|00:32:21,506|RU3|>> SHE BECAME HYSTERICAL.
00:32:21,572|00:32:22,106|RU3|SHE GOT A CELL PHONE CALL THAT
00:32:22,173|00:32:24,876|RU3|HER... THAT THE TRADE CENTER WAS
00:32:24,943|00:32:26,945|RU3|HIT WITH A PLANE.
00:32:27,011|00:32:28,012|RU3|>> Pelley: WITH HIS OWN MONEY, A
00:32:28,079|00:32:29,147|RU3|FEW DONATIONS, AND A SMALL,
00:32:29,213|00:32:31,382|RU3|MOSTLY VOLUNTEER STAFF, LUFT
00:32:31,449|00:32:33,384|RU3|STARTED HIS INTERVIEWS.
00:32:33,451|00:32:35,486|RU3|SO FAR, HE'S RECORDED 137.
00:32:35,553|00:32:41,059|RU3|>> Paukner: WHEN THE BUILDING
00:32:41,125|00:32:42,560|RU3|IMPLODED DOWN, IT BLEW ME OUT OF
00:32:42,627|00:32:44,295|RU3|THE BUILDING, AND I WAS ABLE TO
00:32:44,362|00:32:46,097|RU3|HOLD ONTO THE DOORWAY WITH MY
00:32:46,164|00:32:48,366|RU3|LEFT ARM.
00:32:48,433|00:32:50,335|RU3|>> Christine Famiglietti: THE
00:32:50,401|00:32:52,437|RU3|FIRST THING I FOUND WAS AN
00:32:52,503|00:32:55,573|RU3|ENTIRE BODY, BURNED INTO REBAR.
00:32:55,640|00:32:56,441|RU3|>> Bill Fischer: THEY... THEY
00:32:56,507|00:32:57,976|RU3|PUT A LINE AROUND OUR WAIST.
00:32:58,042|00:32:59,444|RU3|I'M LIKE, "I'M GOING IN THIS
00:32:59,510|00:33:00,645|RU3|WAY, SNAKING AROUND ON MY BELLY
00:33:00,712|00:33:01,346|RU3|AROUND," SAYS, "THERE'S NO WAY
00:33:01,412|00:33:03,147|RU3|YOU CAN PULL ME OUT."
00:33:03,214|00:33:04,849|RU3|AND THE GUY JUST LOOKED AT ME.
00:33:04,916|00:33:07,251|RU3|IT WASN'T TO PULL US OUT; IT WAS
00:33:07,318|00:33:11,055|RU3|JUST TO FIND US IF WE DIED.
00:33:11,122|00:33:12,523|RU3|>> WHERE WE EXPECTED TO SEE TWO
00:33:12,590|00:33:13,157|RU3|TALL BUILDINGS, WE JUST SAW A
00:33:13,224|00:33:17,261|RU3|SKELETON.
00:33:17,328|00:33:19,964|RU3|THE MOST POWERFUL NATION IN THE
00:33:20,031|00:33:20,431|RU3|WORLD.
00:33:20,498|00:33:23,067|RU3|HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN?
00:33:23,134|00:33:24,102|RU3|>> Luft: THERE'S NO CLEARER
00:33:24,168|00:33:25,670|RU3|RENDITION OF WHAT HAPPENED ON
00:33:25,737|00:33:26,404|RU3|9/11 THAN THERE ARE IN THESE
00:33:26,471|00:33:27,872|RU3|HISTORIES.
00:33:27,939|00:33:29,273|RU3|>> Pelley: WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE?
00:33:29,340|00:33:30,708|RU3|>> Luft: SO, OF COURSE, WE HAVE
00:33:30,775|00:33:34,245|RU3|THE FIREMEN AND THE POLICEMEN
00:33:34,312|00:33:35,013|RU3|AND THE E.M.S. WORKERS.
00:33:35,079|00:33:35,646|RU3|AND THEN, WE HAVE THE VOLUNTEER
00:33:35,713|00:33:36,948|RU3|FIREMEN.
00:33:37,015|00:33:38,049|RU3|AND THEN, YOU HAVE THE
00:33:38,116|00:33:39,083|RU3|IRONWORKERS AND THE CONSTRUCTION
00:33:39,150|00:33:41,753|RU3|WORKERS AND THE LABORERS.
00:33:41,819|00:33:44,889|RU3|ON 9/11, ALL AMERICANS
00:33:44,956|00:33:45,723|RU3|RESPONDED, FROM ALL WALKS OF
00:33:45,790|00:33:47,592|RU3|LIFE.
00:33:47,658|00:33:48,326|RU3|>> I WAS A SENIOR IN HIGH
00:33:48,393|00:33:49,727|RU3|SCHOOL.
00:33:49,794|00:33:51,029|RU3|I REALIZED I HAD TO GO DOWN
00:33:51,095|00:33:53,598|RU3|THERE.
00:33:53,664|00:33:54,298|RU3|I DON'T KNOW HOW I'M GOING TO
00:33:54,365|00:33:54,999|RU3|HELP; I DON'T KNOW WHAT I CAN
00:33:55,066|00:33:57,068|RU3|DO.
00:33:57,135|00:33:59,437|RU3|>> MY WHOLE FAMILY IS COPS.
00:33:59,504|00:34:01,406|RU3|I'M THE 13TH IN MY FAMILY BEING
00:34:01,472|00:34:04,609|RU3|A NEW YORK CITY POLICE OFFICER.
00:34:04,675|00:34:05,176|RU3|>> I AM A LICENSED MASSAGE
00:34:05,243|00:34:06,077|RU3|THERAPIST.
00:34:06,144|00:34:08,713|RU3|I JUST FELT LIKE I HAD TO BE
00:34:08,780|00:34:11,115|RU3|DOWN THERE HELPING THESE PEOPLE,
00:34:11,182|00:34:12,216|RU3|KNOWING WHAT I DO FOR A LIVING
00:34:12,283|00:34:16,387|RU3|CAN HELP THESE PEOPLE.
00:34:16,454|00:34:17,088|RU3|>> I WORK FOR THE N.Y.C. HIGHWAY
00:34:17,155|00:34:17,555|RU3|DEPT.
00:34:17,622|00:34:18,089|RU3|I.... YOU KNOW, ROADWORK,
00:34:18,156|00:34:18,689|RU3|CONSTRUCTION, STUFF LIKE THAT.
00:34:18,756|00:34:19,257|RU3|I NEVER TRAINED FOR ANYTHING
00:34:19,323|00:34:20,191|RU3|LIKE THIS.
00:34:20,258|00:34:24,228|RU3|AND I LEARNED QUICK, THOUGH.
00:34:24,295|00:34:24,862|RU3|>> Pelley: WE SPENT A FEW HOURS
00:34:24,929|00:34:25,463|RU3|WITH SOME OF THE RESPONDERS AT
00:34:25,530|00:34:28,800|RU3|STONY BROOK UNIVERSITY.
00:34:28,866|00:34:30,468|RU3|AND AS WE LISTENED, WE REALIZED
00:34:30,535|00:34:32,236|RU3|THAT, FOR THEM, TODAY, SUNDAY,
00:34:32,303|00:34:34,105|RU3|ISN'T THE TENTH ANNIVERSARY OF
00:34:34,172|00:34:36,641|RU3|SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED; IT'S
00:34:36,707|00:34:37,341|RU3|THE TENTH YEAR OF SOMETHING THAT
00:34:37,408|00:34:38,576|RU3|NEVER ENDS.
00:34:38,643|00:34:41,412|RU3|IN A SENSE, IT'S ALWAYS 9/11.
00:34:41,479|00:34:43,281|RU3|JOHN GALLAGHER IS A FORMER NEW
00:34:43,347|00:34:44,682|RU3|YORK CITY FIRE CAPTAIN SUFFERING
00:34:44,749|00:34:47,118|RU3|WITH PULMONARY FIBROSIS,
00:34:47,185|00:34:48,619|RU3|SCARRING OF THE LUNGS THAT ONLY
00:34:48,686|00:34:50,388|RU3|GETS WORSE.
00:34:50,455|00:34:52,924|RU3|>> John Gallagher: THE WORLD
00:34:52,990|00:34:53,524|RU3|TRADE CENTER IS STILL CLAIMING
00:34:53,591|00:34:56,327|RU3|LIVES.
00:34:56,394|00:34:57,328|RU3|PEOPLE HAVE HAD THEIR LIVES
00:34:57,395|00:35:00,331|RU3|SHORTENED.
00:35:00,398|00:35:01,032|RU3|PEOPLE HAVE LOST THEIR FATHERS,
00:35:01,099|00:35:02,633|RU3|THEIR... THEIR MOTHERS TO
00:35:02,700|00:35:06,571|RU3|CANCERS, TO LUNG DISEASES,
00:35:06,637|00:35:07,605|RU3|ANYTHING THAT YOU CAN IMAGINE,
00:35:07,672|00:35:09,373|RU3|BLOOD-BORNE DISEASES.
00:35:09,440|00:35:13,678|RU3|PEOPLE ARE STILL DYING.
00:35:13,744|00:35:14,979|RU3|>> Pelley: SHOW OF HANDS.
00:35:15,046|00:35:15,613|RU3|HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE BEEN LIVING
00:35:15,680|00:35:16,647|RU3|THROUGH MEDICAL PROBLEMS AS A
00:35:16,714|00:35:18,416|RU3|RESULT OF THE WORK THAT YOU DID
00:35:18,483|00:35:22,920|RU3|IN THOSE DAYS?
00:35:22,987|00:35:24,489|RU3|ALMOST ALL OF YOU.
00:35:24,555|00:35:26,324|RU3|BILL, GIVE ME A SENSE OF WHAT
00:35:26,390|00:35:26,891|RU3|YOU'VE BEEN WORKING THROUGH,
00:35:26,958|00:35:30,761|RU3|HEALTH-WISE.
00:35:30,828|00:35:32,230|RU3|>> Fischer: I HAVE ASTHMA, I
00:35:32,296|00:35:35,032|RU3|HAVE NODULES ON BOTH LUNGS,
00:35:35,099|00:35:37,435|RU3|SINUSITIS, RHINITIS.
00:35:37,502|00:35:39,937|RU3|>> Pelley: BILL FISCHER WAS A
00:35:40,004|00:35:41,272|RU3|NEW YORK CITY COP, NOW RETIRED.
00:35:41,339|00:35:42,306|RU3|>> Fischer: I... I NEVER SMOKED,
00:35:42,373|00:35:44,575|RU3|I DON'T DRINK.
00:35:44,642|00:35:47,845|RU3|I'M... I GO THE GYM AS OFTEN AS
00:35:47,912|00:35:48,546|RU3|I CAN, AND IT'S NOT AS MUCH AS I
00:35:48,613|00:35:49,647|RU3|WOULD LIKE TO ANYMORE.
00:35:49,714|00:35:51,749|RU3|I LITERALLY HAVE A BUCKET OF
00:35:51,816|00:35:54,752|RU3|ABOUT 20 MEDICINES, A PLASTIC
00:35:54,819|00:35:55,653|RU3|BUCKET THAT I HAVE TO TAKE
00:35:55,720|00:35:57,522|RU3|SOMETHING DURING THE DAY.
00:35:57,588|00:36:00,658|RU3|>> Pelley: THIS IS BILL FISCHER.
00:36:00,725|00:36:01,492|RU3|HE WORKED AT GROUND ZERO FOR
00:36:01,559|00:36:03,794|RU3|FOUR MONTHS.
00:36:03,861|00:36:08,666|RU3|AND LIKE THOUSANDS OF OTHERS, HE
00:36:08,733|00:36:09,500|RU3|WAS COVERED IN DUST THAT
00:36:09,567|00:36:10,134|RU3|CONTAINED CARCINOGENS, ASBESTOS,
00:36:10,201|00:36:11,202|RU3|AND TOXINS TOO NUMEROUS TO LIST.
00:36:11,269|00:36:12,837|RU3|KEN GEORGE WAS THERE, TOO.
00:36:12,904|00:36:14,672|RU3|HE HELPED RECOVER HUMAN REMAINS.
00:36:14,739|00:36:15,373|RU3|KEN, WHAT... WHAT HAS YOUR
00:36:15,439|00:36:16,941|RU3|HEALTH EXPERIENCE BEEN?
00:36:17,008|00:36:18,342|RU3|>> Ken George: OH, I GOT A LIST.
00:36:18,409|00:36:18,910|RU3|>> Pelley: EVERYBODY'S GOT A
00:36:18,976|00:36:20,178|RU3|LIST, IT SOUNDS LIKE.
00:36:20,244|00:36:22,013|RU3|>> George: IT STARTED WITH THE
00:36:22,079|00:36:25,750|RU3|9/11 COUGH I HAD, WHICH LED ME
00:36:25,816|00:36:26,384|RU3|TO HAVE RADS-- RESTRICTED AIRWAY
00:36:26,450|00:36:28,853|RU3|DISEASE-- WHICH MEANS I CAN'T
00:36:28,920|00:36:29,954|RU3|GET ENOUGH OXYGEN IN OR OUT.
00:36:30,021|00:36:31,522|RU3|LIKE THESE PEOPLE SAID, THE
00:36:31,589|00:36:33,324|RU3|SINUSES, I HAVE ALL THAT.
00:36:33,391|00:36:35,026|RU3|SO IT'S JUST STARTED SNOWBALLING
00:36:35,092|00:36:36,527|RU3|OUT OF CONTROL, YOU KNOW WHAT I
00:36:36,594|00:36:37,595|RU3|MEAN?
00:36:37,662|00:36:43,434|RU3|AND WHO KNOWS IF, FIVE YEARS
00:36:43,501|00:36:44,035|RU3|DOWN THE LINE, IF I'M GOING TO
00:36:44,101|00:36:44,635|RU3|WIND UP WITH CANCER, YOU KNOW.
00:36:44,702|00:36:45,303|RU3|I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE I'M...
00:36:45,369|00:36:46,671|RU3|MY FAMILY'S TAKEN CARE OF, IF
00:36:46,737|00:36:48,639|RU3|ANYTHING HAPPENS, YOU KNOW?
00:36:48,706|00:36:53,778|RU3|I JUST DON'T WANT THEM TO BE OUT
00:36:53,844|00:36:54,612|RU3|ON THE STREET.
00:36:54,679|00:36:55,880|RU3|>> Luft: ANY PAIN?
00:36:55,947|00:36:56,981|RU3|>> Pelley: PAYING THEIR MEDICAL
00:36:57,048|00:36:58,249|RU3|BILLS HAS BEEN A STRUGGLE.
00:36:58,316|00:36:58,983|RU3|FUNDING FOR THE WORLD TRADE
00:36:59,050|00:36:59,617|RU3|CENTER HEALTH PROGRAM WAS NEVER
00:36:59,684|00:37:00,218|RU3|CERTAIN UNTIL THIS YEAR, WHEN
00:37:00,284|00:37:01,986|RU3|CONGRESS GUARANTEED COVERAGE.
00:37:02,053|00:37:04,589|RU3|BUT THAT GUARANTEE LASTS ONLY
00:37:04,655|00:37:06,490|RU3|THE NEXT FIVE YEARS; THE
00:37:06,557|00:37:08,726|RU3|ILLNESSES AND THE MENTAL TRAUMA
00:37:08,793|00:37:11,162|RU3|ARE LIKELY TO LAST A LIFETIME.
00:37:11,229|00:37:12,463|RU3|>> Tyree Bacon: ONE THING
00:37:12,530|00:37:13,531|RU3|NOBODY'S MENTIONED, BUT WE ALL
00:37:13,598|00:37:14,565|RU3|HAVE IT-- IT'S LIKE LUGGAGE AND
00:37:14,632|00:37:17,368|RU3|WE HAVE IT FOREVER-- IS THE
00:37:17,435|00:37:17,835|RU3|POST-TRAUMATIC STRESS.
00:37:17,902|00:37:18,336|RU3|>> Paukner: YEP.
00:37:18,402|00:37:19,170|RU3|>> Pelley: TYREE BACON WAS A
00:37:19,237|00:37:21,205|RU3|SENIOR COURT OFFICER WHO WORKED
00:37:21,272|00:37:23,908|RU3|TEN BLOCKS FROM THE WORLD TRADE
00:37:23,975|00:37:24,809|RU3|CENTER.
00:37:24,875|00:37:25,409|RU3|HE REACHED THE TOWERS BEFORE
00:37:25,476|00:37:26,510|RU3|THEY COLLAPSED.
00:37:26,577|00:37:27,411|RU3|>> Bacon: THOSE OF US WHO WEAR
00:37:27,478|00:37:28,212|RU3|UNIFORMS MAKE A LIVING OUT OF
00:37:28,279|00:37:29,113|RU3|THE WORST TEN MINUTES OF
00:37:29,180|00:37:31,415|RU3|EVERYBODY'S LIVES.
00:37:31,482|00:37:33,918|RU3|9/11 WAS A HELL OF A LOT LONGER
00:37:33,985|00:37:34,785|RU3|THAN TEN MINUTES LONG.
00:37:34,852|00:37:36,254|RU3|POST-TRAUMATIC STRESS IS
00:37:36,320|00:37:37,722|RU3|SOMETHING THAT I HAVE A ISSUE
00:37:37,788|00:37:38,990|RU3|WITH.
00:37:39,056|00:37:42,059|RU3|SPENT A MONTH AFTER BEING CAUGHT
00:37:42,126|00:37:43,160|RU3|IN THE COLLAPSE, WAKING UP ON
00:37:43,227|00:37:44,662|RU3|THE FLOOR, TRYING TO FEEL MY...
00:37:44,729|00:37:46,564|RU3|MY WAY OUT OF MY OWN BEDROOM.
00:37:46,631|00:37:48,733|RU3|THAT WENT ON FOR OVER A MONTH.
00:37:48,799|00:37:49,367|RU3|>> Pelley: THIS IS TYREE BACON,
00:37:49,433|00:37:50,735|RU3|IN THE ORAL HISTORY PROJECT,
00:37:50,801|00:37:52,136|RU3|REMEMBERING A WOMAN WHO GRABBED
00:37:52,203|00:37:53,838|RU3|HIM BY THE SHIRT AS ONE OF THE
00:37:53,904|00:37:56,540|RU3|TOWERS FELL.
00:37:56,607|00:37:57,742|RU3|>> Bacon: AND I TOLD HER, I
00:37:57,808|00:37:58,376|RU3|SAID, "SWEETHEART, DON'T WORRY,
00:37:58,442|00:37:58,976|RU3|I PROMISE WE'RE GETTING OUT OF
00:37:59,043|00:38:00,111|RU3|HERE."
00:38:00,177|00:38:00,945|RU3|I FLAT-OUT LIED TO HER.
00:38:01,012|00:38:01,545|RU3|I THOUGHT WE WERE GOING TO DIE
00:38:01,612|00:38:05,216|RU3|WHERE WE WERE.
00:38:05,283|00:38:06,350|RU3|IF I DIDN'T HAVE HER, I PROBABLY
00:38:06,417|00:38:09,320|RU3|WOULD'VE CURLED UP IN A FETAL
00:38:09,387|00:38:13,658|RU3|POSITION AND JUST WAITED TO DIE.
00:38:13,724|00:38:14,425|RU3|>> Luft: WHEN THAT RESPONDER
00:38:14,492|00:38:19,964|RU3|WENT DOWN TO GROUND ZERO, THEY
00:38:20,031|00:38:22,033|RU3|WERE EXPERIENCING TRAUMATIC
00:38:22,099|00:38:27,738|RU3|EVENTS IN RAPID SUCCESSION:
00:38:27,805|00:38:28,406|RU3|BUILDINGS FALLING, GIRDERS
00:38:28,472|00:38:29,740|RU3|FALLING, TRIPPING, YOU KNOW,
00:38:29,807|00:38:31,509|RU3|PEOPLE JUMPING OUT OF BUILDINGS,
00:38:31,575|00:38:32,843|RU3|SEEING TREMENDOUS AMOUNTS OF
00:38:32,910|00:38:33,611|RU3|CARNAGE.
00:38:33,678|00:38:34,078|RU3|>> Pelley: THE FIRES.
00:38:34,145|00:38:35,780|RU3|>> Luft: THE FIRES.
00:38:35,846|00:38:37,014|RU3|NOW, IT'S NOT OCCURRING OVER A
00:38:37,081|00:38:38,282|RU3|TEN-SECOND PERIOD OF TIME; IT'S
00:38:38,349|00:38:39,183|RU3|OCCURRING OVER WEEKS AND MONTHS.
00:38:39,250|00:38:42,920|RU3|AND THE SAME PERSON IS
00:38:42,987|00:38:44,255|RU3|EXPERIENCING IT OVER AND OVER
00:38:44,322|00:38:48,225|RU3|AND OVER AGAIN.
00:38:48,292|00:38:49,393|RU3|>> Paukner: THE JUMPERS, I
00:38:49,460|00:38:51,462|RU3|THINK, WERE THE WORST, YOU KNOW?
00:38:51,529|00:38:53,597|RU3|TO ACTUALLY SEE THEM JUMP AND...
00:38:53,664|00:38:54,699|RU3|AND PULVERIZE JUST IN FRONT OF
00:38:54,765|00:38:58,502|RU3|YOU, YOU KNOW?
00:38:58,569|00:38:59,470|RU3|THAT WAS JUST HORRIBLE.
00:38:59,537|00:39:00,905|RU3|>> Pelley: THERE WAS A SOUND...
00:39:00,971|00:39:01,605|RU3|>> Paukner: YEAH.
00:39:01,672|00:39:02,506|RU3|>> Pelley: ...THAT THAT MADE.
00:39:02,573|00:39:04,275|RU3|>> Paukner: THAT WAS, FIRST... I
00:39:04,342|00:39:05,309|RU3|DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THAT SOUND WAS,
00:39:05,376|00:39:06,544|RU3|AT FIRST.
00:39:06,610|00:39:08,679|RU3|AND THEN, YOU GO TO SEE WHAT
00:39:08,746|00:39:11,148|RU3|THAT SOUND WAS, AND YOU REALIZE
00:39:11,215|00:39:12,683|RU3|THAT IT WAS A PERSON THAT HAD
00:39:12,750|00:39:15,252|RU3|JUST JUMPED.
00:39:15,319|00:39:18,589|RU3|IF IT'S THAT BAD UP THERE THAT
00:39:18,656|00:39:20,124|RU3|YOU HAVE TO JUMP, YOU KNOW?
00:39:20,191|00:39:21,759|RU3|A LOT WE COULDN'T SEE.
00:39:21,826|00:39:23,761|RU3|>> Luft: ALMOST INVARIABLY,
00:39:23,828|00:39:25,763|RU3|PEOPLE COME TO US AFTERWARDS AND
00:39:25,830|00:39:27,565|RU3|SAY, "YOU KNOW, DOC, THIS IS THE
00:39:27,631|00:39:28,566|RU3|FIRST TIME THAT I'VE BEEN ABLE
00:39:28,632|00:39:29,600|RU3|TO TALK ABOUT THIS.
00:39:29,667|00:39:33,037|RU3|THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THAT I
00:39:33,104|00:39:34,638|RU3|CAN TELL OTHERS WHAT REALLY
00:39:34,705|00:39:37,842|RU3|HAPPENED ON 9/11."
00:39:37,908|00:39:40,010|RU3|>> Gallagher: IN THE THREE
00:39:40,077|00:39:40,778|RU3|MONTHS THAT I WAS THERE, WE
00:39:40,845|00:39:45,950|RU3|FOUND VERY, VERY FEW VICTIMS.
00:39:46,016|00:39:50,955|RU3|WE FOUND PIECES, BUT NOT BODIES.
00:39:51,021|00:39:52,156|RU3|THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME I EVER
00:39:52,223|00:39:54,125|RU3|SPOKE OF MY EXPERIENCES AT 9/11.
00:39:54,191|00:39:56,093|RU3|I FOUND IT THERAPEUTIC.
00:39:56,160|00:39:56,861|RU3|>> Pelley: HOW MANY YEARS WAS IT
00:39:56,927|00:40:00,564|RU3|THAT YOU DIDN'T TALK ABOUT 9/11?
00:40:00,631|00:40:02,166|RU3|>> Gallagher: SEVEN YEARS.
00:40:02,233|00:40:03,033|RU3|>> Pelley: WHY?
00:40:03,100|00:40:04,168|RU3|>> Gallagher: I DIDN'T WANT TO
00:40:04,235|00:40:04,802|RU3|REPLAY IT AND I DIDN'T WANT
00:40:04,869|00:40:06,270|RU3|TO... YOU KNOW, I LIVED IT.
00:40:06,337|00:40:07,471|RU3|I DIDN'T WANT TO RELIVE IT.
00:40:07,538|00:40:08,272|RU3|>> Christine Famiglietti: I
00:40:08,339|00:40:09,140|RU3|DIDN'T THINK IT WAS A SUCH A
00:40:09,206|00:40:09,940|RU3|GREAT IDEA, BECAUSE I THINK A
00:40:10,007|00:40:12,143|RU3|LOT OF US BURIED THAT DAY.
00:40:12,209|00:40:13,677|RU3|>> Pelley: CHRISTINE FAMIGLIETTI
00:40:13,744|00:40:14,879|RU3|WAS A NEW YORK CITY COP, NOW
00:40:14,945|00:40:15,913|RU3|RETIRED.
00:40:15,980|00:40:17,148|RU3|>> Famiglietti: TO REALLY BRING
00:40:17,214|00:40:19,984|RU3|IT UP AND HASH IT UP AND DISCUSS
00:40:20,050|00:40:21,919|RU3|IN DEPTH WAS A LITTLE... I WAS A
00:40:21,986|00:40:24,422|RU3|LITTLE FEARFUL OF THAT.
00:40:24,488|00:40:25,022|RU3|IN THE LONG RUN, I WAS GLAD I
00:40:25,089|00:40:25,556|RU3|DID IT.
00:40:25,623|00:40:26,190|RU3|>> Bacon: THAT'S HOW I'VE GOTTEN
00:40:26,257|00:40:27,658|RU3|THROUGH MY PTSD IS BY TALKING
00:40:27,725|00:40:29,493|RU3|ABOUT IT.
00:40:29,560|00:40:31,829|RU3|AND SOMETIMES IT'S DIFFICULT,
00:40:31,896|00:40:33,497|RU3|SOMETIMES IT'S NOT, BUT IT'S
00:40:33,564|00:40:36,233|RU3|HELPED ME A GREAT DEAL TALKING
00:40:36,300|00:40:37,468|RU3|ABOUT IT; YOU KNOW, HELPS ME
00:40:37,535|00:40:39,203|RU3|SLEEP AT NIGHT.
00:40:39,270|00:40:40,738|RU3|>> Pelley: I THINK A LOT OF
00:40:40,805|00:40:42,139|RU3|FOLKS AT HOME WOULD LIKE TO
00:40:42,206|00:40:43,641|RU3|KNOW, AFTER TEN YEARS, WOULD YOU
00:40:43,707|00:40:45,342|RU3|CONSIDER... IN TERMS OF THEIR
00:40:45,409|00:40:47,311|RU3|MENTAL HEALTH, WOULD YOU
00:40:47,378|00:40:50,681|RU3|CONSIDER A LOT OF THESE PATIENTS
00:40:50,748|00:40:53,217|RU3|TO BE BETTER?
00:40:53,284|00:40:54,618|RU3|>> Luft: I DO BELIEVE THAT THEY
00:40:54,685|00:40:58,656|RU3|ARE BETTER FROM THE POINT OF
00:40:58,722|00:41:00,724|RU3|VIEW OF MOVING ON WITH THEIR
00:41:00,791|00:41:01,492|RU3|LIVES AND BE... HAVING BECOME
00:41:01,559|00:41:03,928|RU3|MUCH MORE ADAPTABLE.
00:41:03,994|00:41:05,062|RU3|BUT I DON'T THINK THEY EVER LET
00:41:05,129|00:41:06,664|RU3|IT... LEAVE IT BEHIND.
00:41:06,730|00:41:07,998|RU3|IT'S A CONSTANT PART OF THEIR
00:41:08,065|00:41:09,200|RU3|LIFE.
00:41:09,266|00:41:10,434|RU3|I THINK THAT THAT'S TRUE FOR ANY
00:41:10,501|00:41:12,770|RU3|GREAT EVENT THAT OCCURS, BUT
00:41:12,837|00:41:14,805|RU3|ESPECIALLY TRUE FOR THIS EVENT,
00:41:14,872|00:41:16,240|RU3|WHICH WAS ETCHED INTO THEIR
00:41:16,307|00:41:18,209|RU3|CONSCIOUSNESS.
00:41:18,275|00:41:19,977|RU3|>> Pelley: DR. LUFT'S INTERVIEWS
00:41:20,044|00:41:21,679|RU3|ARE NOW A DOCUMENTARY, AND ALSO
00:41:21,745|00:41:23,280|RU3|A BOOK CALLED "WE'RE NOT
00:41:23,347|00:41:25,416|RU3|LEAVING," THE MEMORABLE QUOTE
00:41:25,483|00:41:27,051|RU3|FROM OFFICER CAROL PAUKNER TO
00:41:27,117|00:41:28,185|RU3|THAT FBI AGENT WHO HAD URGED HER
00:41:28,252|00:41:30,621|RU3|TO RUN.
00:41:30,688|00:41:31,489|RU3|THE PROFITS WILL GO TO
00:41:31,555|00:41:32,723|RU3|SCHOLARSHIPS AND JOB TRAINING
00:41:32,790|00:41:33,991|RU3|FOR THE RESPONDERS AND THEIR
00:41:34,058|00:41:35,593|RU3|FAMILIES.
00:41:35,659|00:41:36,760|RU3|JOHN FEAL WAS A DEMOLITION
00:41:36,827|00:41:38,863|RU3|EXPERT WHO HELPED MOVE THE
00:41:38,929|00:41:41,465|RU3|WRECKAGE.
00:41:41,532|00:41:42,199|RU3|>> John Feal: THESE MEN AND
00:41:42,266|00:41:42,967|RU3|WOMEN TO THE LEFT AND RIGHT OF
00:41:43,033|00:41:43,567|RU3|ME AND BEHIND ME, THEY'RE THE
00:41:43,634|00:41:44,201|RU3|BEST OF THE BEST OF WHAT AMERICA
00:41:44,268|00:41:47,204|RU3|OFFERED TEN YEARS AGO.
00:41:47,271|00:41:49,139|RU3|WE CAN'T CHANGE HISTORY, AND
00:41:49,206|00:41:50,541|RU3|THROUGH THEIR EYES, THEY'RE
00:41:50,608|00:41:52,443|RU3|TELLING AMERICA WHAT THEY SEEN,
00:41:52,510|00:41:53,544|RU3|WHAT THEY DID, AND WHAT THEY'RE
00:41:53,611|00:41:55,579|RU3|GOING THROUGH TEN YEARS LATER.
00:41:55,646|00:41:56,947|RU3|AND... AND THAT IS PRICELESS.
00:41:57,014|00:41:57,548|RU3|>> Pelley: NOW, THE LIBRARY OF
00:41:57,615|00:41:59,183|RU3|CONGRESS IS LOOKING INTO ADDING
00:41:59,250|00:42:00,651|RU3|THE INTERVIEWS TO ITS PERMANENT
00:42:00,718|00:42:02,953|RU3|COLLECTION, TO BE KEPT FOR ALL
00:42:03,020|00:42:04,522|RU3|TIME SO THAT GENERATIONS CAN
00:42:04,588|00:42:06,891|RU3|HEAR THE UNEDITED, UNVARNISHED
00:42:06,957|00:42:08,292|RU3|REALITY AS EXPERIENCED BY THE
00:42:08,359|00:42:11,862|RU3|PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE.
00:42:11,929|00:42:12,630|RU3|>> Fischer: ONE THING I WANT TO
00:42:12,696|00:42:13,864|RU3|SAY, THE REAL HEROES OUT OF THIS
00:42:13,931|00:42:15,966|RU3|STUFF ARE DEAD.
00:42:16,033|00:42:16,500|RU3|>> Paukner: THANK YOU.
00:42:16,567|00:42:17,201|RU3|ABSOLUTELY.
00:42:17,268|00:42:17,935|RU3|>> Familglietti: ABSOLUTELY.
00:42:18,002|00:42:20,070|RU3|>> Fischer: THEY'RE NOT HERE.
00:42:20,137|00:42:20,638|RU3|NOBODY HERE IS... IS A HERO.
00:42:20,704|00:42:21,272|RU3|WE JUST DID WHAT EVERYBODY ELSE
00:42:21,338|00:42:21,739|RU3|DID.
00:42:21,805|00:42:24,041|RU3|THE... THE TRUE HEROES ARE
00:42:24,108|00:42:25,242|RU3|PEOPLE WHO WENT INTO THOSE
00:42:25,309|00:42:27,077|RU3|BUILDINGS AND THEY NEVER MADE IT
00:42:27,144|00:42:28,712|RU3|OUT.
00:42:30,681|00:42:32,116|RU3|>> GO TO 60minutesovertime.com
00:42:32,182|00:42:33,350|RU3| TO WATCH DR. LUFT'S
00:42:33,417|00:42:39,957|RU3| EXTRAORDINARY INTERVIEWS WITH
00:42:40,024|00:42:41,458|RU3|>> Pelley: I'M SCOTT PELLEY.
00:42:41,525|00:42:43,193|RU3|WE'LL BE BACK NEXT WEEK WITH
00:42:43,260|00:42:45,062|RU3|ANOTHER EDITION OF "60 MINUTES."
00:42:45,129|00:42:46,964|RU3|JUST AHEAD ON CBS, ROBERT
00:42:47,031|00:42:48,766|RU3|De NIRO HOSTS "9/11: TEN YEARS
00:42:48,832|00:42:50,801|RU3|LATER," AN UPDATE OF THE AWARD-
00:42:50,868|00:42:53,103|RU3|WINNING FILM WHICH, WITH THE
00:42:53,170|00:42:54,204|RU3|ONLY CAMERAS INSIDE THE WORLD
00:42:54,271|00:42:55,606|RU3|TRADE CENTER DURING THE ATTACKS,
00:42:55,673|00:42:57,408|RU3|REMAINS ONE OF THE MOST
00:42:57,474|00:42:59,977|RU3|IMPORTANT HISTORIC RECORDS OF
00:43:00,044|00:43:02,346|RU3|THE TRAGEDY AND THE HEROISM OF
00:43:02,413|00:43:03,547|RU3|THAT DAY.